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  #61  
Old 10-23-2020, 01:51 AM
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How about we split the thread into two different ones. The group that is sure that all electronics in the universe are destroyed and impossible to build can have one thread. They can talk about walking back to the US from Poland or whatever. The other group can talk about the game impact of things like drones or maybe adventure ideas around them.

That way the "nothing works" crowd doesn't have to get all snarky and offended that other people aren't playing Twilight: 2000 BC.
Better still, how about we all try to follow the forum guidelines?

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We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here.

Please don't attempt to incite internecine forum conflict with deliberately provocative and/or inflamatory posts. In interweb parlance, please don't be a troll.
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  #62  
Old 10-23-2020, 01:53 AM
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Of course the books specifically state EMP screwed up everything, INCLUDING items which were supposed to be shielded.

T2k is NOT the real world. The physics, while similar, are different. What we can expect to survive IRL did not in T2k. Again, this is stated in the game books!

The world is a mess. EVERYTHING is either destroyed, worn out or in very, very short supply. I really shouldn't have to be reminding people of this (again) as it's a core part of Twilight:2000!
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  #63  
Old 10-23-2020, 07:29 AM
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Better still, how about we all try to follow the forum guidelines?
I agree and second the motion!
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  #64  
Old 10-23-2020, 07:42 AM
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Of course the books specifically state EMP screwed up everything, INCLUDING items which were supposed to be shielded.

T2k is NOT the real world. The physics, while similar, are different. What we can expect to survive IRL did not in T2k. Again, this is stated in the game books!

The world is a mess. EVERYTHING is either destroyed, worn out or in very, very short supply. I really shouldn't have to be reminding people of this (again) as it's a core part of Twilight:2000!
No the books never said that. Sorry but there are working refineries and nuclear power stations and working military vehicles with electronics that are still working. As for short supply - the US is literally drowning in electronics and spare parts sitting in junk yards/repair yards/warehouses/etc. - a lot of which can be modified by the right people to either bring things back to life or jury rig it for other uses.

No that doesnt mean you can easily rewire the electronic village. Yes it does mean that you will see some interesting jury rigs/MacGyvers/A-Team "those idiots locked us up in a room with welding equipment" devices - for instance UAV's and drones - if you can get the right people and the spare parts they need together in the same place

FYI thats where Operation Reset comes from in Africa - i.e. there wont be any resupply from the US so they send out teams to find weapons, fuel, spare parts, electronics that could be used for other applications, etc. Obviously the same thing would be happening here in the US - I dont see the Colorado Springs govt or New America or CivGov just sitting on their butts and not sending out teams (i.e. the players) to get what is needed to keep their vehicles/planes/electronics/etc. going

and offers all kinds of ideas for salvage missions for GM's
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  #65  
Old 10-23-2020, 07:48 AM
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Yes, but you will need oil and hyd fluid and other lubricating portions of P.O.L acronym. Without them then you will have an issue in keeping the engine and bearings in the flight controls or even the wheels lubricated. Allowing for the use of what it already out there. Processing what crude that is still recoverable from the ground into a lubrication or an oil will be difficult without a good chemical industry.
FYI that is being done - that is one thing that is in the books that while there is oil still being refined a lot of it has to go for lubrication and oil - and where you have military units intact - especially around Colorado Springs - you will have refining going on - the Robinson refinery only recently in the game had an accident that reduced its refining capability - but until then it would have been producing POL and other fluids - and thats just one refinery - they never said 100% of the refining capability was destroyed
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  #66  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:25 AM
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Of course the books specifically state EMP screwed up everything, INCLUDING items which were supposed to be shielded.

T2k is NOT the real world. The physics, while similar, are different. What we can expect to survive IRL did not in T2k. Again, this is stated in the game books!

The world is a mess. EVERYTHING is either destroyed, worn out or in very, very short supply. I really shouldn't have to be reminding people of this (again) as it's a core part of Twilight:2000!
All I can say about this, is we read the books very different. I do not get that from any of the books that I have read. So as far as I am concerned, based on my reading of the books, it is not a core part of twilight 2000. Twilight 2000 is more about being cut off from the chain of command, and government than a total lack of supplies. The way that I read it, everything is still available, not in the numbers that we are used to, but then again there are not the number of people that we are used to. Production is limited (and yes somethings are not being made anymore) but it is not a new dark ages like it seams that you are suggesting (and maybe I am reading you wrong).

So I guess what I am getting to is that it looks like there are very different ways people look at the same source material, and that is fine.
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  #67  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:08 AM
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All I can say about this, is we read the books very different.
I refer you to post #25 of this very thread and the bit I copied direction from the book where it states
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Control circuitry and electronic components of all types (in every type of industrial facility) were fried by the EMP (electromagnetic pulses) of nuclear detonations thousands of miles away (prewar predictions of EMP proved to be underestimates, and even supposedly shielded equipment was damaged to some extent).
Seems pretty damn clear to me and leaves very little to interpretation. Electronics were FRIED.
This happened THOUSANDS OF MILES from detonations.
Even shielded equipment was damaged.

How much clearer do you need?
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  #68  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
EMP won't kill a diesel engine. Diesel engines don't require the electrical system that petrol/gasoline engines need. While the EMP might very well destroy any electronic ignition, military vehicles in particular have shielding to protect these things from EMP.
Most civilian aircraft will be protected from EMP as they must be capable of handling the impact of lightning strikes while in flight.
There's nothing magical about vehicles surviving EMP
I guess sarcasm doesn't translate to Australian. The magic EMP that destroys all electrical conductors and makes electronics impossible also allows Diesel engines to run on alcohol.
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  #69  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:31 AM
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I refer you to post #25 of this very thread and the bit I copied direction from the book where it states
Seems pretty damn clear to me and leaves very little to interpretation. Electronics were FRIED.
This happened THOUSANDS OF MILES from detonations.
Even shielded equipment was damaged.

How much clearer do you need?
And yet per the rule book, you can have refrigerators (unshielded), Night Vision (very unshielded), and many other things that if that was truly the case you could not have at the start of the game. So that makes it not as clear as you think, and very open to interpretation.
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  #70  
Old 10-23-2020, 12:03 PM
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Legbreaker wants to play Aftermath then he should play Aftermath. The rules state a lot of things - but they also state there are working vehicles that have electronic ignitions, working reactors (Colorado Springs, the USS Virginia), that there was power still being generated in the US in 1998 in places AFTER the TDM, that there are still jet aircraft flying (and that it was fuel and spare part issues not fried electrical systems that made the military park them), that there are missiles that still work, targeting systems, etc. that still work

In Germany - where there were a hell of a lot of nuke detonations - there is a reactor that is being put back online- which is pretty hard to do if all electronic systems were fried and gone for thousands of miles. Also France still has power as does Belgium - again very hard to do if all electrical systems for thousands of miles were fried.

And Great Britain managed to get power working again on their oil platforms to make them operational

And FYI Bash is right - the M88A1 and M88A2 - both vehicles that I was directly responsible for - have literally no electrical systems that can be fried by EMP except their radios. It would be the same with all kinds of older systems - i.e. that P-51 sitting at the airfield wouldnt be affected at all. Neither would that old Sherman tank. Or a car built before they used electronic ignitions. Or the systems that ran the power generators at Niagara Falls - all very old equipment that EMP would basically leave untouched.
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  #71  
Old 10-23-2020, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bash View Post
I guess sarcasm doesn't translate to Australian. The magic EMP that destroys all electrical conductors and makes electronics impossible also allows Diesel engines to run on alcohol.
(emphasis added)

This is why sarcasm is mentioned in the Keep it Civil Forum guideline (already posted in this thread by a moderator). Sarcasm often doesn't come across the playful, good-natured reparte that the author may intend. Also, most people don't enjoy sarcasm directed towards a serious comment that they made. At worst, sarcasm is intended, yet deniable, rudeness. I will not make a public judgment about the intent of the quoted material, but I know it came across to me, a neutral.

There's been some really helpful information shared in this thread. A lot of the discussion here has been quite constructive. I really don't want to lock this thread, but a few posters are apparently growing quite agitated. Please take a deep breath and remember that we are talking about a game- one that involves liberal doses of make-believe and play acting- before posting a response to something that rankles. If a member insists on continuing to willfully ignore forum guidelines, then a ban will be in order.

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  #72  
Old 10-23-2020, 12:36 PM
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The book says some extent, not total darkness like revolution. However every GM is responsible for there own world. In mine I choose to limit the extent that players can get ahold of certain objects like a nuclear warhead. I have US military friends that when we talk about the game they will bring up points like tobyhanna isnt just a facility in Pennsylvania but that they have large stockpiles around the world, along with ammo dumps etc. I have that there some areas that are sitting on large stocks.

For example a port facility with enough equipment to say outfit 5000 men with BDUs and basic load equipment. The problem was that the transportation network broke down. so here is a few hundred soldiers and sailors living there life surviving off these supplies of mres or whatever they have because no one has shown up to use these supplies to help out, or they have gone rouge and they are building there own empire, or they died of disease and the quarintine signs and skeletal remains have scared everyone away so it remains untouched.

I have limited access to advanced electronic, I use the book rules for availability, and if its a successful role for said item i determine by what the item is how much is available. For example prc77 radio. This vender in the market has said item, its a small market so 1d6 tells me how many he has. Buyer beware as he sold you 4 and only 2 work properly as you didnt check it out before you left the shop. crooks are crooks after all.

Again its your world do what you want.
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  #73  
Old 10-23-2020, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
No the books never said that.
Actually Howling Wilderness does say that. See the attached pic from my scanned copy of said supplement.

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Originally Posted by CDAT View Post
And yet per the rule book, you can have refrigerators (unshielded), Night Vision (very unshielded), and many other things that if that was truly the case you could not have at the start of the game. So that makes it not as clear as you think, and very open to interpretation.
That is one of the major disconnects between what the rule books have said and what the supplements have followed up on with regards to what is and isn't there for the players and the GM to use. That is why some hand waving or going with some "Wizards did it" is required and it all depends on how hardcore you want to follow the rules and the canonical setting.

I mean most of my games, unless it was a major plot point in the campaign. We didn't think much about crunchier parts of the rule book about supplies or even survival since the rules crunching and book keeping can get complicated that way. Most of the TTRPGS that I have played, depending on the feel of the crowd and the attitude of the DM/GM, keep some or toss other rules unless it becomes a plot point to have dice thrown and the book keeping completed.

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FYI that is being done - that is one thing that is in the books that while there is oil still being refined a lot of it has to go for lubrication and oil - and where you have military units intact - especially around Colorado Springs - you will have refining going on - the Robinson refinery only recently in the game had an accident that reduced its refining capability - but until then it would have been producing POL and other fluids - and thats just one refinery - they never said 100% of the refining capability was destroyed
Granted that, still 1% of that will be going MilGov unless the GM in your game decides to have the 194th mutiny and go either independent or go CivGov. Still the prioritization list will be fuel to the food and to the tech that works (i.e trucks, jeeps, and farm vehicles) that guarantee that unit food and survival. A fanciful idea of getting a drone to work may not pay off or even if it does, the weighing of what percentage of POL produced will go to that project versus what is actually usable on the field. Yet, what is interesting is that the US Army Vehicle Guide which was published two years before Howling Wilderness, doesn't make mention of the refinery being in possession of the 194th and that its in Cairo. See the attached Google Map showing the current distance using the Interstate 57 is about 283 miles, using the older US Highway 45 is a straighter shot of about 184 miles. That is still a bunch of miles to try and travel. Which source is correct and accurate? That sort of question leads me on a tangent about GDW and their inability to have a canon bible for their products. So you will have to decide which is accurate or that the core of the 194th is in Cairo holding the river junction, while an element is holding the refinery and deciding whether to mutiny or is it the core is at the refinery and only an element is in cantonment at Cairo, IL.

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At this point the discussion really seems to be about the fact that if your GM and your party want to have a drone. It should be allowed with the applicable hand waving of how to get the parts, fuel, maintenance items around. Recognizing that the Tw2K world isn't the same one we saw in the real life. The Tw2K timeline has allowed for technology that was just on paper when it was written or was just starting to enter prototype, but didn't make it past that point to enter full service in real life. With the respect to drones, they weren't popular in the 1980s except for targets and selected recon efforts by three letter intelligence agencies. It wasn't until post Kosovo where drones and the talk of them being used and the advances in the technology as we see now in the current wars overseas.
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Last edited by Southernap; 10-23-2020 at 01:12 PM. Reason: typo fix
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  #74  
Old 10-23-2020, 01:31 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Well obviously GDW authors werent all talking to each other - i.e. if the EMP fried so much then why are there working vehicles that have electronic ignitions, working reactors (Colorado Springs, the USS Virginia), that there was power still being generated in the US in 1998 in places AFTER the TDM, that there are still jet aircraft flying (and that it was fuel and spare part issues not fried electrical systems that made the military park them), that there are missiles that still work, targeting systems, etc. that still work?

And the 194th isnt just at Cairo and Robinson - if you go by Challenge Magazine they are also sending in patrols deep into Ohio as well - and any EMP that fried communication systems would have probably fried the targeting systems on the M1 tanks.

Like I said GDW continuity errors between their various Twilight 2000 releases had enough plot holes to drive (literally) a Sherman tank thru (or Cromwell or Panther or T-34 for our friends in other countries) as a result.

However a nation almost devoid of working modern electrical devices - no that is definitely NOT what GDW describes - for one because several of their own releases contradict themselves on that. Not the least of which is Last Submarine - i.e. how did they refit her if most electronics were fried by EMP. The issues the sub had were with insufficient manning in the rest of the trilogy - not insufficient electronics to get her fitted out.

Oh and HW and I are not friends (shocker to those who have followed my posts) - Loren didnt really do a good job of explaining why no military unit in the US managed to grow in size when the only game in town to get fed in many areas is to join the army. Or where 41000 of the 43000 that got brought home from Europe went to. Or what happened to a hell of a lot of National Guard and Reservist units that would have definitely been mobilized long before. Or that fact that his timeline didnt work with at least two of released modules that preceded it - So I gave up a long time ago trying to apply logic to make sense of the multiple contradictions between HW and multiple previous releases. And then the 2nd edition came out and didnt mention New America or the HW/Kidnapped drought at all so not even sure for V2.2 if they even exist.

Last edited by Olefin; 10-23-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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  #75  
Old 10-23-2020, 03:20 PM
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It wasn't until post Kosovo where drones and the talk of them being used and the advances in the technology as we see now in the current wars overseas.
Drones were used extensively for SEAD and recon missions in Desert Shield/Storm and Bosnia was the first major deployment for the RQ-9. This is only the modern style drones. The older FireBee and Chukar drones have been in use since the Vietnam war, pointed out in this very thread. Drones were established technology and well utilized by the Twilight war.
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  #76  
Old 10-23-2020, 08:25 PM
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I guess sarcasm doesn't translate to Australian. The magic EMP that destroys all electrical conductors and makes electronics impossible also allows Diesel engines to run on alcohol.
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

Sarcasm doesn't translate to text very well, your ability to misunderstand that doesn't help your message.
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  #77  
Old 10-23-2020, 08:29 PM
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I think much of this discussion really needs to be a separate thread. It covers much greater ground than the original concept of "drones in T2k" and seems to be intent on exploring those larger issues.

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 10-23-2020 at 09:10 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #78  
Old 10-24-2020, 12:49 AM
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I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

Sarcasm doesn't translate to text very well, your ability to misunderstand that doesn't help your message.
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