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  #31  
Old 12-06-2008, 10:29 AM
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I think most civilian vehicles would survive, the car body itself can act as a Faraday shield, unless you have a Corvette or something. I work in auto parts and most parts are designed to work in a less than optimum environment with heat, cold bumpy roads and so on. I think I read a link somewhere that the government did test EMP against cars made from 1986 to 2002 or so and all or most survived, a couple quit running but they started up again I think. I know Ford did an EMP study in 1967 where cars are not affected too much but most car electronics then were less complex than today's.

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Old 12-06-2008, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966
I think most civilian vehicles would survive, the car body itself can act as a Faraday shield.

Chuck M.
Very true and very possible indeed (I always forget about that faraday thing). However, I think one of us said that infrastructures were not shielded or protected at all. As a result, you'll quickly have to face a shortage in electronic spare parts. With no proper care, I wouldn't expect the most modern car to survive long, nevertheless. In addition, with no diagnosis computers most mechanics might have trouble fixing them.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:29 PM
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One other factor to consider about shielding: do underground parking lots and highway tunnels provide protection? I know they are quite effective in killing off radio broadcasts and mobile phone transmissions. Anybody have any ideas?
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  #34  
Old 12-06-2008, 03:40 PM
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No clue but that might also be true for old stone buildings. My house is quite good at shielding these stuffs too. However, from a wild guess I would think that it would depend on intensity.
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  #35  
Old 12-06-2008, 04:19 PM
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I imagine that reinforced concrete (ie concrete with steel rods or mesh through it to strengthen it) would provide more protection against EMP than normal concrete or rock because it might act as a kind of basic Faraday cage. I could be wrong on this though.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:43 PM
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Since mountains cause an EMP shadows I would have to assume that some amount of concrete or earth would offer protection.

EMP also causes a problem with reradiation where a long piece of metal will absorb and retransmit. Phone lines might radiate energy within a basement for example. However since such radiation is generated in all directions the range is quite short (a few feet).

Last edited by kato13; 12-06-2008 at 04:49 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-07-2008, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
Since mountains cause an EMP shadows I would have to assume that some amount of concrete or earth would offer protection.
Then, an old medieval type building might even offer more protection than a non purposedly made concrete building (still I have no clue on this but if anyone has, I'll be glad to hear from it).
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  #38  
Old 03-03-2009, 06:48 AM
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I've been deep in research on the effects of EMP for most of the day and come to several conclusions based on the information I've read. Sources include papers written for the US military, scientific studies, and apparently "authoritive" books on the subject such as The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, by Glasstone and Dolan.

Firstly, a car IS likely to be effected by EMP. The body will not act as a "Faraday cage" or at least not to any significant amount. Rubber tyres will do absolutely nothing to offset the effects of EMP, otherwise planes would also be exempt.

Sheilding in all cases includes earthing - direct contact to the earth using a conductor. Rubber tyres actually prevent this occuring. I'm not sure how this is achieved with aircraft but I'll continue to investigate.

Solid metal plates are the material of choice when attempting to shield anything although burying cables, etc is advised (with metal sheeting laid over the top). Therefore, it's likely underground garages, caves, etc will have some impact on EMP.

Just because it doesn't state in the various versions of history that high altitude bursts occured, doesn't mean they didn't happen. It does state though that satellites in orbit were targeted and destroyed. Not knowing anything about ASAT weaponry, I would have to say it's at least possible low yield nukes were responsible for a few dead spy satellites. In fact EMP might be especially devastating to them but as they're shielded against cosmic radiation, etc, who knows?

And now for some good news. Although vehicles such as cars, trucks, wheeled AFVs, aircraft, even ships would be effected, tanks and other tracked AFVs are likely to suffer only minimal EMP effects. This is mainly because the armour itself acts as shielding AND most importantly, the metal tracks mean the vehicle is constantly grounded!

Naturally many of these vehicles might still fall victim, especially if radio antenna are still raised, hatches open, etc, or they're just too close to the source of the EMP.
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  #39  
Old 03-03-2009, 09:40 AM
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Interesiting Leg.
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  #40  
Old 03-03-2009, 12:05 PM
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Default Cars and trucks knocked out by EMP

I have been doing research as well. What I came up with is that it's basically a crap shoot, when it comes to whether cars and trucks would not be knocked out by EMP. According to tests done at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and at the US Military's EMP simulators, some cars have proven to be resistant to EMP, while other have not. The age, make, and car model, have nothing to do with whether cars and trucks can be knocked out or can not knocked out by EMP; it has to do with the position of the car’s electronic components. If the electronic components are position in a certain way, the body of the car will almost act as a Faraday Box and protect the internal electronic components. Also they found out during these tests; that in some of the cars that failed to survive the EMP pulse, only the electronic ignition was damaged, and therefore those could be used once the electronic ignition was bypassed.
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  #41  
Old 03-03-2009, 12:06 PM
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Here are some sites about EMP

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Al...magnetic_Pulse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
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  #42  
Old 03-03-2009, 01:36 PM
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Euh? I might be wrong but from what I know, older cars have no electronics and, as a result, wouldn't be knocked out by EMP. Therefore, age has to do with it.

I don't know if the electrical system can be destroyed as well but replacing a bunch of electrical wires will not be that much of a problem. Even, finding or making a battery is faisable.
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  #43  
Old 03-03-2009, 04:43 PM
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Electrical systems are also effected.

Older systems are more "robust" I suppose is the best description, simply because the damaged parts can be replaced much easier than modern wiring and electronics.

Finding parts to do it on the other hand.....
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  #44  
Old 03-03-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
Older systems are more "robust" I suppose is the best description, simply because the damaged parts can be replaced much easier than modern wiring and electronics...
REALLY old electronic systems that use vacuum tubes are incredibly resistant to EMP apparently. Not so easy to replace though.
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  #45  
Old 03-03-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
REALLY old electronic systems that use vacuum tubes are incredibly resistant to EMP apparently.
Apparently one of the reasons the USSR kept using vacuum tube tech for aircraft & radios well past the time they could make transistors
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  #46  
Old 03-03-2009, 10:38 PM
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But they're still effected according to what I was reading yesterday. They're down the order a bit, but they're still effected.

ANYTHING with an electrical current is effected. Experiments have been conducted on animals to see what the results are on the nervous system because of that fact. Good news is it appeared there's little to no measurable impact.
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  #47  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:38 AM
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From a link I found in the morrow project yahoo group.

Quote:
The potential EMP vulnerability of automobiles derives from the use of built-in electronics that support multiple automotive functions. Electronic components were first introduced into automobiles in the late 1960s. As time passed and electronics technologies evolved, electronic applications in automobiles proliferated. Modern automobiles have as many as 100 microprocessors that control virtually all functions. While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices.

We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).

Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running
automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them.
Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.

Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below 25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious malfunctions could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be triggered crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the consequent loss of life, and multiple injuries.
(emphases added)

From Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (7MB). PDF page 131 numbered page 115

In general they feel that blown traffic systems and lack of electricity for gas pumps will lead to greater degradation of the transportation system than disabled vehicles.

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  #48  
Old 06-24-2009, 05:55 AM
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Ah, good old political spin in action again it appears....

Firstly, I'd be interested in how they worked up to their settings - was it in one sudden pulse, or did they just turn the dial slowly until they achieved the desired level?

As the damage is actually inflicted by the SUDDEN increase in electrical activity, a slow increase isn't likely to have anywhere near the same effect.

Secondly, they only tested up to approximately 50,000 V/m. That's NOTHING when you consider,
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAS
...electric fields greater than 1,000,000 V/m and peak magnetic fields greater than 4,000 A/m can exist.
So, bearing that information in mind, information generated from the both NATO and US DoD documents, I'd say the Commissions report might be just slightly tinged with political expediancy....
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  #49  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:09 AM
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If you read the report it is very much a chicken little report (the sky is falling). It just seems that cars are one of the more hardy parts of the infrastructure.

From the Executive summary

Quote:
Several potential adversaries have or can acquire the capability to attack the United States with a high-altitude nuclear weapon-generated electromagnetic pulse (EMP). A determined adversary can achieve an EMP attack capability without having a high level of sophistication.

EMP is one of a small number of threats that can hold our society at risk of catastrophic consequences. EMP will cover the wide geographic region within line of sight to the nuclear weapon. It has the capability to produce significant damage to critical infrastructures and thus to the very fabric of US society, as well as to the ability of the United States and Western nations to project influence and military power.

The common element that can produce such an impact from EMP is primarily electronics, so pervasive in all aspects of our society and military, coupled through critical infrastructures. Our vulnerability is increasing daily as our use of and dependence on electronics continues to grow. The impact of EMP is asymmetric in relation to potential protagonists who are not as dependent on modern electronics.

The current vulnerability of our critical infrastructures can both invite and reward attack if not corrected. Correction is feasible and well within the Nation's means and resources to accomplish.
http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf



More quotes

Quote:
Depending on the specific characteristics of the attacks, unprecedented cascading failures of our major infrastructures could result. In that event, a regional or national recovery would be long and difficult and would seriously degrade the safety and overall viability of our Nation. The primary avenues for catastrophic damage to the Nation are through our electric power infrastructure and thence into our telecommunications, energy, and other infrastructures. These, in turn, can seriously impact other important aspects of our Nation’s life, including the financial system; means of getting food, water, and medical care to the citizenry; trade; and production of goods and services. The recovery of any one of the key national infrastructures is dependent on the recovery of others. The longer the outage, the more problematic and uncertain the recovery will be. It is possible for the functional outages to become mutually reinforcing until at some point the degradation of infrastructure could have irreversible effects on the country’s ability to support its population.
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  #50  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
Firstly, I'd be interested in how they worked up to their settings - was it in one sudden pulse, or did they just turn the dial slowly until they achieved the desired level?

Secondly, they only tested up to approximately 50,000 V/m. That's NOTHING when you consider,

Originally Posted by FAS
...electric fields greater than 1,000,000 V/m and peak magnetic fields greater than 4,000 A/m can exist.
I would have to assume the peak fields would not reach the surface over a large area. Unless this commission feels they can get away with testing 1/20 of what will actually hit the surface and not get called on it. Also remember that when something radiates in 3 dimensions energy drops rapidly for every doubling of distance.

Their tests show computers having problems at 3kV/m and Damaged at 8-16 kV/m. Locomotives start have disruptive problems around 20 kV/m. Cars and to a lesser extent trucks just seem more robust under similar testing circumstances.

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  #51  
Old 06-24-2009, 09:29 PM
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So I guess everyone is saying that the distructive effects of EMP wouldn't be as bad as the T2K universe has presented. That actually gives me alot more really good ideas on how to improve the way I can set things up for the future campaigns I want to create.

The fact that small scale personal electronics wouldn't be as effected by an EMP burst would actually improve some of the 'luxuries' that the characters would have to fall back upon to help give them a little bit of comfort.

But it would also mean that all sides in the war would have put alot of use of their anti-satellite weapons arsenals into use to knock out any and all satellites they can. But at the same time, it would also put a lot of effort to put replacements either in orbit or high altitude (like the 'weather ballons' that had been used before the U2 spy planes where used).
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  #52  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:02 PM
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I tend to take official committee type reports with a grain of salt. They're usually commissioned by a politician (or group of them) with an agenda with the results often skewed to fit.

Going back to the actual research documents, those written up by the scientists who actually did the tests, tends, at least in my opinion, to give a truer indication of the possible effects.

Everything I've been able to find from the horses mouth so to speak, says everything is going to be effected, ESPECIALLY more modern, hi tech electronics. Not having read the committee's report (I'll get to it though once I've some time), I still expect based on the excerpts posted thus far, that the findings are based on flawed research.

Perhaps those responsible for the report have an interest in the car industry? Perhaps having the majority of cars off the road will assist them in some way (maybe they've got shares in one of the major manufacturers for example).
Perhaps they've got a far more immediate interest in improving the infrastructure (shares in traffic light manufacturing companies)? Who really knows?

Regardless, research has shown that as a rule of thumb, the more modern a device, the more hi tech, light weight and delicate electronics (and electricals) involved, the more vulnerable it is. Therefore, don't expect your I-pod to work but your old 1980's walkman might....
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  #53  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
Regardless, research has shown that as a rule of thumb, the more modern a device, the more hi tech, light weight and delicate electronics (and electricals) involved, the more vulnerable it is. Therefore, don't expect your I-pod to work but your old 1980's walkman might....
I agree with Legbreaker's analysis.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:52 PM
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Well I hope everyone interested reads the report. They are not very optimistic on many things. My general thought about these type of reports is that are more likely to overstate dangers as part of a "Cover Your Ass" mentality. In this report cars and trucks seem to be the exception, which matches anecdotal data I have heard about for years.

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Old 06-25-2009, 01:55 AM
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come on guys ! How else am I going to beat my party back into the stoneage and make their enviroment a barbarious savage mad maxian world were hair dressing products is the scarce and precious commodity all fight over ??!


But seriously , from your comments - I sense some distrust to official views - and that is a bit disturbing consideringthe serious matter . What I am tryingto say is that it is sad that we have to have doubts about the truth in goverment findings like these.

But I agree in your statements of doubt to some extent .

I guess we deont need EMP to shut down vehicular travel - in a limited time there will be no gas and voila .All cars will be standing were they ran out more or less.And for the hoarders - gas is only stabile for 12- 24 months , maybe double with special additives .(Its "pep" dissipates over time )

Also lack of spareparts and malfunctions other than EMP would render many modern cars useless in a short time.

But I " like" the EMP catastrophy in gaming terms - and take the alternative view that a sudden sharp emp will fry most unshielded circuts within a certain range . ( One explanation to all the tubes in Soviet electronics - they stood up better to EMPs )
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
From a link I found in the morrow project yahoo group.

(emphases added)

From Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (7MB). PDF page 131 numbered page 115

In general they feel that blown traffic systems and lack of electricity for gas pumps will lead to greater degradation of the transportation system than disabled vehicles.
I pretty much agree with that, don't forget, automobile electronics are made to stand up to rugged conditions, perhaps because of that, they are not as prone to EMP as most think although that could be a side effect. Most diodes and transistors in automobiles are huge things as well. Plus unless you have a Corvette, the car body is like a Faraday cage. I work in auto parts and see this stuff all the time.

As to weird stuff happening like gauges going crazy or idiot lights blinking, well, thati s possible too, then again, I remember my father bought a 1972 Chevy Bel-Air and the fuel gauge would read empty to full and back again, the temperature light would stay on and so on. We had a few bad switches, I remember Mom keeping track of fuel with the odometer and we just kept driving with out fingers crossed in the hope we won't overheat.

Another exception was a defect, Ford has some problems with heat shutting down the ignition systems in their 1990 Lincoln Town Cars. I was driving one from Moon Township near the Airport to North Huntington PA for a rental company I worked for. It was Sunday, after hours, everyone went home except me. Well, I made it through the Fort Pitt tunnel and the Lincoln died on me as I was on the Fort Pitt Bridge. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and I had to coast to an emergency pullover place as I turned to I-376 to the Parkway East after getting off the Fort Pitt Bridge. I barely made it. I tried to restart the thing, no go. I tried several times, nothing. No one was coming by, I was near downtown Pittsburgh but it seem so deserted. No police came by or anyone. I sat there for 15 minutes. I decided to either hoof it, even if I had to walk on the highway or to restart again. Well, I tried the car, it restarted no problems and I made it to North Huntington no problem. I picked up the vehicle I was supposed to and made it home.
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Old 06-29-2009, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
So I guess everyone is saying that the distructive effects of EMP wouldn't be as bad as the T2K universe has presented. That actually gives me alot more really good ideas on how to improve the way I can set things up for the future campaigns I want to create.

The fact that small scale personal electronics wouldn't be as effected by an EMP burst would actually improve some of the 'luxuries' that the characters would have to fall back upon to help give them a little bit of comfort.

But it would also mean that all sides in the war would have put alot of use of their anti-satellite weapons arsenals into use to knock out any and all satellites they can. But at the same time, it would also put a lot of effort to put replacements either in orbit or high altitude (like the 'weather ballons' that had been used before the U2 spy planes where used).
Yeah, even if you can drive around after the Apocalypse, life will still be Hell unless you can find a way to pup fuel out with a generator/battery powered system or a manual system along with somehow forming your own fuel in the long run. Even then, it will be Hell until you get some sort of power gird going.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966
Plus unless you have a Corvette, the car body is like a Faraday cage. I work in auto parts and see this stuff all the time.
ARGH!

Once again a car body DOES NOT ACT AS A FARADAY CAGE!
See message #38 above for why. Also http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...hlight=faraday

The faults you've refered to are just that - faults. They might be reasonable symptoms of a dodgy electrical component or two, but they've got next to nothing to do with EMP.

I respect your opinions and automotive knowledge, but please, please, PLEASE read the relevant information that's been refered to in several posts.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
ARGH!

Once again a car body DOES NOT ACT AS A FARADAY CAGE!
See message #38 above for why. Also http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...hlight=faraday

The faults you've refered to are just that - faults. They might be reasonable symptoms of a dodgy electrical component or two, but they've got next to nothing to do with EMP.

I respect your opinions and automotive knowledge, but please, please, PLEASE read the relevant information that's been refered to in several posts.
From what I understand, a Faraday cage does not have to be grounded to work so I still contend that a car's body can act as one.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:47 PM
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While grounding may not be entirely necessary in some cases (still researching that), any openings will negate any protection provided by the vehicles body - ie windows are going to be a BIG problem.
Also, the wiring thoughout the vehicle acts as an antenna, channeling the EMP from exposed areas to more critical, and normally shielded, areas concentrating the pulse and causing damage.

I've found at least one example of where EMP was so strong in wiring that it welded them together!
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