Twilight World in 2005 / 2010?

[kalos72]

So what does YOUR world look like 5-10 years out from Omega?

Milgov/Civgov still pumping? Germany rebuild? China ever recover? US troops still in Yugoslavia?

Does your timeline head into that other game, I cant think of the name of right now?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So what does YOUR world look like 5-10 years out from Omega?

Milgov/Civgov still pumping? Germany rebuild? China ever recover? US troops still in Yugoslavia?

Does your timeline head into that other game, I cant think of the name of right now?

2300 AD, I think is what the game was. I never thought that far ahead.

Because you asked about a future that can only be speculated and is therefore in the hands of individual GMs, and therefore the impact of canon can be interpreted as we wish...

By 2005 CivGov is taking a look at the gains MilGov is making not only on the battlefields in the US, fighting back the Mexicans and Russians but in terms of governance. A great number, about a third, of the troops that come home and muster out after Omega in fact re-enlist and are deployed to fill the gaps in the front lines. Gold is retrieved from various reserves including New York. Trade is slowly reestablished with non-nuked oil producing countries. Some engineering advances - by late 2005 - with fracking are able to produce more oil than previously thought in various oilfields in the US. The issue is still infrastructure. Given how many major highways and railways are shattered, it still takes more fuel to move fuel than you produced from place to place. Thus new cities begin to arise around petrochemical production rather than people staying in place.

Anyway, by 2007 CivGov realizes that they're losing the war at home. CivGov conducts its own Operation Omega and withdraws troops from the Balkans to try and repeat the successes MilGov had; they partially do but the population is war weary and just happy to have the boys back home (more or less) so there's not much support for "fighting MilGov" (among the troops or the civilian population).

By 2010, tacit agreements between the two factions lead to the Mexicans being routed out of Texas and back to the Baja in California but a significant "peacekeeping force" is consolidated in both New Mexico and Arizona. These are tough nuts to crack and without 100% integration and cooperation all CivGov and MilGov can do is supply insurgents and hope for the best rather than launching all-out counterattacks. Worse, Mexican civilians have been "encouraged" to move into these zones of control and they cooperate with Mexican forces in rooting out "disruptive elements", making the insurgency a tenuous thing at best.

Also by 2010, the US Naval forces in the Persian Gulf have been repaired and re-fitted; a slow but steady trickle of replacement parts from the US reached the damaged ships over the ten years and the Carl Vinson and supporting ships were finally able to move out of repair dock back into operation. For the first time in nearly fifteen years, a carrier battle group is capable of operating. A joint force of Jordanian, Saudi and (incredibly) Israeli troops take over for US forces. Utilizing the Carl Vinson as a transport vessel, most tactical air resources are ferried back home in the carrier's hangar (these were craned onto the ship, then partially disassembled and covered for protection from salt-water. The convoy takes one month to reach home, and docks at the partially repaired Naval Station Norfolk. Unlike Operation Omega (and the CivGov equivalent) operations, RDF personnel and Naval personnel are retained. RDF Personnel are shifted to operations in the Southwest with hopes for an eventual brekathrough into Mexican-controlled New Mexico and Arizona, but such an attack cannot be launched until early 2011. However, it will likely come as a nasty surprise for the Mexican forces due to the overwhelming amount of tactical air support from F15Es and A10s shipped back from the Persian Gulf theater.

Russian attempts to reinforce gains in Alaska end in dismal failure; ten Siberian divisions enter Alaska and simply disappear into the wilderness. Despite training in one of the most inhospitable climates ever (Siberia), the troops are unaccustomed to the combination of mountainous terrain, rapidly changing weather and the large number of armed insurgents in the Alaskan peninsula. (Historical footnote: in late 2015, ten men speaking Russian and armed with Russian weapons, wearing remnants of Russian military uniforms are arrested trying to steal a fishing vessel in Port St. John on the Canadian east coast; their reason given was that they were trying to "get home". They were repatriated on a trade vessel headed for France in July of 2018).

Jumping back a bit, boom harvests in 2007, 2008 and 2009 meant a huge uptick in the amount of food for all Americans, this led to a feeling that things were "getting better" an a straw poll indicated that a full 43% of US citizens felt that the United States would eventually be able to reconstruct itself and once again become a world power...

Although Japan suffered several nuclear strikes, having never committed itself to any battlefield it's material assets (Tanks, planes, ships) are virtually untouched: with assistance from Australia in food and fuel, Japan becomes a regionally stabilizing force from 2003-2010, and even assists the United States in the recovery of its forces from Korea (although the sight of Japanese flagged military vessels in Korean harbors causes serious tension among Koreans). Japanese ties with the US remain, but they are strained. The Diet re-convened in Echigo in 2003 for the first time since 1997, and only narrowly voted to maintain diplomatic ties with the US, although they are circumspect and communicate through international channels since the question of who is in charge of the United States is unclear.



North Korea is too exhausted to continue any further aggression against the South and since only Seoul suffered any war damage is in no position to do so at any rate. The Hermit Kingdom grows ever silent from 2001-2010, although reports of terrible famines and a dictatorship whose brutality rivals that of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the 1970s abound. Regarding the

Australian wheat feeds most of the Pacific Rim; the chaotic weather of the early 2000s never visited the antipodean land, and as such "MADE IN AUSTRALIA" is seen on most food packages throughout the south pacific and even in the United States along the west coast.

In 2004, Vietnam cuts all ties with prior communist regimes, expels all remaining Soviet "advisers" and opens talks with Japan about reconstruction aid.

Although Taiwan maintained fraternal ties with China during the Twilight War (and indeed, a battalion of CM-11 Brave Tiger tanks and a brigade strength of infantry were deployed to mainland China), the only damage it suffered was a botched SS-20 spread aimed at Taipei that missed by 30km; casualties were relatively light. Taiwan is the main source of information coming out of the radioactive wilderness that is Mainland China at the moment. They maintain strong ties with the US through 2010.

In 2008, France and Italy create a formal power axis; a no-confidence "vote" (really an armed coup de etat) in 2006 deposes the communist/Soviet aligned Red Faction in power there, leaving a new Italian parliament to pick its own allies, and they align with the French.

From 2001-2010, Germany slowly, agonizingly begins to rebuild. Thousand year old villages and cities have to be quarantined due to disease and nuclear, biological and chemical contamination. Bremen becomes the new capital of the Federal Republic of Germany. With the armored units left behind from Operation Omega, plus it's own stocks, plus ex-Belgian units that fled to Germany after the French annexed Belgium and turned it into a no-man's land buffer zone, and counting (somewhat) on a division's worth of US troops that did not heed the Omega order, the Germans have the most powerful military in the region but concerns about increasing chaos in Poland and the Balkans leave them with little reign to use it beyond internal and eastern border security.

Britain rebuilds from 2001-2010. A small handful of armored vehicles remain in Britain, but there is little concern that any heavy tank force will come ashore at any rate. His Majesty's government is more concerned with Naval matters, namely securing the Northern Sea oil platforms. They maintain diplomatic relations with the FRG and US (MilGov).

The (former) USSR is a shattered nation; where a few nuclear weapons detonating over and on the industrialized west was a disaster, hitting a nation with such a poor infrastructure as the USSRs is an absolute nightmare. While rich in natural resources, Siberia is effectively reduced to an 1800s level of technology due to the destruction of major railheads and industrial centers throughout. From 2001-2010 just exactly who is in charge in the fUSSR is a matter of wild speculation. Moscow is a series of impact craters and rubble housing perhaps a few thousand bitter hangers-on, but no government of consideration. When searched, fallback bunkers in Ukraine and elsewhere it was suspected the Supreme Soviet would reconvene are found to be empty and unused (although those who discovered them were delighted at the huge stocks of luxury goods therein including western electronics and foodstuffs like Coca Cola, Japanese candies and french wines). The pre-war Soviet government is never seen nor heard from again; the closest thing to a functioning Soviet government from 2000-2010 is CINC-West's command bunker deep in the Urals, and that staff operates more-or-less on autopilot, executing various orders from previous war plans, and concentrates little on civil matters excepting to attempt to put down revolution in the Ukraine (which it fails at) and the Caucus region (which it does). (Historical note: in 2101, a group of divers discovered the wreckage of an Anotov aircraft in a lake outside of Volzhsiky, later archaeological investigation discovers that it was a special aircraft, similar to Air Force One, and within are the remains of the heads of the Politburo and their families; forensic analysis indicates the aircraft attempted a water landing after EMP damage, and all aboard were lost.)

Pakistan and India remain utterly chaotic for 2000-2010, small-scale CBRN exchanges, massed infantry battles and air attacks dominate this region for the entire decade.

Southern and Northern Africa undergo some reconstruction. South Africa had to deal with the destruction of Johannesburg, and the collapse of the Apartheid government. Egypt continued it's belligerence with Libya, and although heavily damaged by nuclear attacks, relatively unscathed Chad kept Libya off balance throughout the 2000s.

South America was unscathed by the war, largely; in my timeline Venezuela never became a communist, anti-US nation but instead in exchange for gold (which it in turn trades to Australia and Brazil for food) supplies the US with needed oil and gasoline.

Brazil is the major powerbroker in the southern hemisphere, at least on the Atlantic side, with a comparatively powerful army and Navy. It helps much of the Caribbean reconstruct from 2000-2010, although some are alarmed at how patriarchal it acts towards its neighbors whom it "assists".

...

Phew, that's all I've got off the top of my head.

[Targan]

In the T:2300 timeline MilGov and CivGov "settle their differences" in 2020, but I think there were few military engagements between the two factions for at least a decade before reunification, and I get the impression that the move towards reunification was greatly assisted by joint operations to finish off New America and other secessionist movements. New America must have put up a hell of a fight, because the T:2300 timeline mentions that MilGov and CivGov were so tied up in their fight with NA, they weren't able to throw Mexican forces out of Arizona, New Mexico and SoCal.

Most US military forces have been withdrawn by the Middle East by 2010. France, Great Britain Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupy the Saudi Oilfields in place of the departing US forces, but Iran objects to that arrangement, sparking the Saudi War from 2010 to 2013. The war ends with a buffer zone established in the northern part of the Saudi Peninsula.

For reasons I find difficult to fathom (but it's canon so...) Mexico retains control of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas for 100 years, until the Mexican-American War from 2099 to 2103 during which US forces assisted Texas in seceding from Mexico and becoming an independent republic. That sparks the Mexican Civil War from 2103 to 2106 during which California, Arizona and New Mexico try to secede from Mexico. The US remains neutral, the secessionist forces are crushed and Los Angeles is devastated during a Mexican amphibious invasion.

So that's basically canon for V1, but I admit some of it is hard to swallow.

[SionEwig]

Originally Posted by Targan

In the T:2300 timeline MilGov and CivGov "settle their differences" in 2020, but I think there were few military engagements between the two factions for at least a decade before reunification, and I get the impression that the move towards reunification was greatly assisted by joint operations to finish off New America and other secessionist movements. New America must have put up a hell of a fight, because the T:2300 timeline mentions that MilGov and CivGov were so tied up in their fight with NA, they weren't able to throw Mexican forces out of Arizona, New Mexico and SoCal.

Most US military forces have been withdrawn by the Middle East by 2010. France, Great Britain Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupy the Saudi Oilfields in place of the departing US forces, but Iran objects to that arrangement, sparking the Saudi War from 2010 to 2013. The war ends with a buffer zone established in the northern part of the Saudi Peninsula.

For reasons I find difficult to fathom (but it's canon so...) Mexico retains control of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas for 100 years, until the Mexican-American War from 2099 to 2103 during which US forces assisted Texas in seceding from Mexico and becoming an independent republic. That sparks the Mexican Civil War from 2103 to 2106 during which California, Arizona and New Mexico try to secede from Mexico. The US remains neutral, the secessionist forces are crushed and Los Angeles is devastated during a Mexican amphibious invasion.

So that's basically canon for V1, but I admit some of it is hard to swallow.

Some of it is hard to swallow??? Try most of it, canon or not. I remember way back, haering someting to the extent that the majority of the "canon" between the two games (T2K and 2300) (and some of the last of the T2K canon) was basically a retroconned story to explain in their minds the actions of their in house great game.

Not that they wrote it badly, but it was based on the actions of players playing a board game (of sorts), not anything with a basis on plausibility. If, like me, you never played or used 2300AD, then it's very ignorable.

But then, many points that were put in the game have been argued over many times as to their plausibility.

[Cdnwolf]

Don't forget Justin Bieber becomes President of the United States after the affair between former President Kayne West and Bruce Jenner become public.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by SionEwig

Some of it is hard to swallow??? Try most of it, canon or not.

Hey man, don't shoot the messenger

[kalos72]

Yeah the 2300 stuff is a bit hard to swallow but in its own right its some good stuff. We are biased because our first passion is the game before it so....

The hardest part of it to me is Texas. My T2K game is in Texas and with all the resources there I cannot imagine why it wasn't the base for the rebuilding of the country.

Good stuff guys, thanks! I love to hear how others develop the rest of the story.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Yeah the 2300 stuff is a bit hard to swallow but in its own right its some good stuff. We are biased because our first passion is the game before it so....

The hardest part of it to me is Texas. My T2K game is in Texas and with all the resources there I cannot imagine why it wasn't the base for the rebuilding of the country.

Good stuff guys, thanks! I love to hear how others develop the rest of the story.

I have my doubts that Texas would stay attached to a country disputed by two native governments. It would not surprise me to see an Independent Texas State (as in a new country) in a 2300 future. Along with Alaska and a couple of other Western American States.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I have my doubts that Texas would stay attached to a country disputed by two native governments. It would not surprise me to see an Independent Texas State (as in a new country) in a 2300 future. Along with Alaska and a couple of other Western American States.

By 2300 Texas is an independent nation, with very close ties to the USA.

[Olefin]

My GM flatly rejected the idea that the US would let Mexico keep Southern CA, AZ, NM and Texas - that even if it took to 2020 to bring CivGov and MilGov back together that the first thing they would have done, if they hadnt already done it, was eject Mexico from any US territory they had taken

And Mexican forces in 2001 were very weak in those areas - I doubt Mexico could have held Arizona against the Apache Nation let alone any organized MilGov force.

Plus the Lone Star module and the Mexican Army article in Challenge shows that Mexican forces in CA were basically no further north than the LA basin, in AZ and NM right along the border and in Texas no further north than a line running from Waco to El Paso. North of that is still a lot of Texas - plus you have the Legion area of control in the eastern part of the state around Tyler

Having them control all of Texas till 2100 and most of AZ and NM to 2300 given those dispositions in 2001 makes no sense. At best they would control the south and southwest of Texas -and that is very iffy depending on who gets the oil in Lone Star.

[kalos72]

That was the whole reason we went with the Texas campaign. NO WAY would ANY US government give Texas away.

My group is still debating the whole independent republic or just the base of the nations rebuilding. They HATE leaving Americans to suffer and leaving all those resources unprotected.

I think they are leaning towards an independent republic but one that will accept all American refugees. Even to the point of sending "recruiters" to highly populated areas looking for skilled workers.

They have a problem with drawing the line through...when is resource collection cross the line with stealing?

[.45cultist]

This is where the T2013 had it more correct than T2K. I think the Mexicans halting oil and other products would have been tried. But an invasion is too "iffy" for a third tier nation geared towards internal defence. If they were to go that route then 2000-2001 should have been the start time with Division Cuba training select units and advising that the U.S. is most vulnerable now. The movement of troops south would tip the cart in a lot of regions, stir up New America, etc. This is a guess, I was just a truck driver. But if Mexico were to try a military solution, timing and luck would be needed, not that the CONUS units sucked during the conflict so hand wave it in. I also think the Texas Legion would get it'd heavy gear from the Mexican forces," Sure that's all we captured" to the U.S. forces while stashing stuff away. This wouldbean interesting campaign idea, especially set pre-nuke. Modified it can work as filler in T2013, with the Mexicans receiving Chinese aid for an insurgency.