And in other news... AKA unusual things to find during the war

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So your band of PCs has managed to find themselves safe in northern Germany and out of the frying pan of Poland. They stop in one town and decide to hole up for the night but the first house they find has some damage. It does have a storage unit however and from the look of it, it's probably warm and dry...

... so it's a pity there isn't much room because you have to share it with a tank, some artillery and other odds and ends all from WW2.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-f...where-33381772
http://europe.newsweek.com/ww2-tank-...asement-329755
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-s-house.html
The tank, by some accounts, was in a drivable condition in 1978 and from some of the photos from 2015, looks to have been in a state of repair.

[stormlion1]

It would make a great scenario for this old bugger to pop up with it and help German forces at some point during the fighting. I wonder how a Panther would do against relatively modern Russian Armor?

As for the guys collection. I've read there were museums bidding on it BEFORE it was seized.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

It would make a great scenario for this old bugger to pop up with it and help German forces at some point during the fighting. I wonder how a Panther would do against relatively modern Russian Armor?

As for the guys collection. I've read there were museums bidding on it BEFORE it was seized.

If there were indeed museums bidding on the equipment in question before it was seized, it calls into question as to why the government seized the equipment to begin with even further. If it was contraband, I doubt he would have had legal entities like museums bidding on it in the first place.

Stuff is likely either going to sit and rust in a warehouse, or get melted into scrap now....sigh.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

If there were indeed museums bidding on the equipment in question before it was seized, it calls into question as to why the government seized the equipment to begin with even further. If it was contraband, I doubt he would have had legal entities like museums bidding on it in the first place.

Stuff is likely either going to sit and rust in a warehouse, or get melted into scrap now....sigh.

It was museums bidding to the Government, not the guy who owned them. I'm thinking someone became aware of them, made an offer to the German Government to seize them so they could be donated.

[Olefin]

A fully operational Panther would probably do pretty well against any kind of APC or armored car and even some of the older tanks like the T-54. Against anything like a T-72 or newer it might have a chance but only in very specific circumstances - I.e. a shot at its belly armor or the rear armor.

[unkated]

And that AA gun?

Um, 88mm Flak gun. The kind Rommel discovered works just dandily on tanks.

The picture in the BBC article shows it with what looks like 4 kill rings.

I agree with Olefin - neither weapon would stop a T-72, but would ruin the day of an armored infantry column. They could probably hurt a tank from ambush, hitting side or rear.


Uncle Ted

[Targan]

One of the articles says that the guy whose basement they were in claims he owned them legally and they had been registered at one point. If he can prove that in court he might end up being compensated for their seizure.

[Apache6]

Not saying that cache would not make for an interesting game, but...

The Panther gun is powerful, but the sights and turret drive (although excellent by WWII standards) would be obsolete and severely limit their ability against a modern AFV, even an IFV. The 25mm chain gun on a bradley or LAV-25 would defeat the armor on a Panther (I assume the 30mm on BMP-2 would as well?), and they are more likely to acquire the target espesically at night or reduced visibility conditions.

Yes, the gun on a panther would defeat the armor of the Bradley or LAV-25, but the comparitively low rate of fire would put them at a severe disadvantage.

If I had the panther, I think I'd ensure that rumors of the "Ghost of Guderian
and his panther" were hunting Soviets (or whoever) to cause fear and apprehension among the enemy.

The article dd not mention anything about ammo? Solid steel shot should not be that hard to manufacture, assuming you have powder. If he offered the panther to a German Militia, unit, he might be able to use the excess powder charges from artillery ammo for his powder, combined with machined steel shot.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's always the possibility of changing the gun to a modern 90mm such as those used on various French designs. True, it will take a workshop and skill but it's still a possibility.

[unkated]

I'd really like to hear this guy's story - how he got these.

Actually, the Bradley's chain gun is not very effective vs anything other than an IFV; the front of the panther would be OK. The TOW would be another story.

The 88 or 75 could do in the Bradley with one shot.

Now, that ammo... 50+ year old ammo. Now that's a chancey thing to fire. May blow up in the gun. Burst charge may not trigger. May be underpowered by some propellant not working to spec. May not go off at all.

Isn't that an interesting option for PCs!

Let's all sing the PanzerLied!

Hmmmmmm.



"Okay, okay," Capt. Griswold said as the roaring diesel died away. "You have a boffo AT gun and a working tank. But, Herr Mayor, these guys are going to drive it? To fight it?" The tank driver slid to the floor and rejoined the formation of a dozen old men.

The Mayor, a stocky guy in his fifties, said in his accented English, "They are willing to take the chance. They have told us all our lives they would stop the Russians again given a chance."

"This is crazy, Cap," said Sgt Jones. Me and John Paul and Bix, witnesses for the rest of the platoon, stood in the doorway to the garage, muttering our agreement. Did they keep those back jump suits for fifty years? And they still fit?

"But Herr Mayor, none of them look younger than seventy! You're telling me they will fight?"

The driver began to sing:

"Ob's stürmt oder schneit, ob die Sonne uns lacht,"

Damn if the rest didn't come in for the second line, heels of their boots pounding the beat on the garage's concrete floor. In the enclosed space, they sounded like 100 boots.

"Der Tag glühend heiß, oder eiskalt die Nacht,
Bestaubt sind die Gesichter, doch froh ist unser Sinn, ja, unser Sinn.
Es braust unser Panzer im Sturmwind dahin!*"

They sang 3 verses like that. I don't speak much German, but long before they end, they sounded like they were twenty-five, not seventy five. And when they finished, they stood straighter and taller than when they started.

Captain Griswold was silent for a moment. "All right," he said quietly. "We'll stay. We'll help."

"Danke," said Herr Mayor.


Uncle Ted




* Translation:

Whether it storms or snows, or the sun smiles on us,
The day burning hot, or ice cold the night.
Dusty are the faces, but our spirits are high, yes, spirits are high.
Our tank bursts through there in the stormwind [of the assault]

See Panzerlied Lyrics for the whole song.

Or just watch the movie clip from Battle of the Bulge. (Spanish translation)

[stormlion1]

Panzerlied or as I call it, my ringtone on my phone.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

One of the articles says that the guy whose basement they were in claims he owned them legally and they had been registered at one point. If he can prove that in court he might end up being compensated for their seizure.

I know it's a terrible thing to say about my country...but ultimately, you can only prove what the government allows you to prove. It's a dirty little secret, but a person in this country can actually be locked with no pretense and with no real proof of wrongdoing.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And in further news...

Your group of PCs are moving through the ruins of the eastern German city of Suhl. They camp for the night in some old factory buildings that from the look of the wrecked machinery, used to be a gunsmiths.
Digging through the ruined furniture found in a cellar in the hopes of finding something they can use as firewood they instead find a padlocked door.
Naturally, they break the padlock and look inside the room... to find some old documents and old rifles ready for the museum and a crate of 7.62x39mm StG44 rifles...

Except they aren't StG44's and they aren't even modified StG44's. They look like product improved versions and they were definitely manufactured to be the way they are (as opposed to modified) and they are definitely chambered for 7.62x39mm.

Wait. What?!

While there was some further development of the StG44 and StG45 rifles in the West that we are all pretty much aware of (e.g. HK G3 & MP5 etc.etc.), it seems East Germany did their own investigations into those designs.
The following link to The Firearms Blog shows pages from a Czech language magazine with some details on an apparent development within the DDR to improve upon the StG designs. Very little is known including the name given to the rifle, the Czech magazine calls it simply the "samopal v NDR" (basically translated as "automatic of the DDR")
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...44-derivative/
And this is the link to the Czech forum were the images were originally posted (the post is fourth from the bottom of the page and it's the first post from the bottom to have images attached)
http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/11593/DEU-StG-44

EDIT: Apparently it has a three-round burst setting and is called the StG59, some limited info can be found on the wiki page for the HK G3 under the East German part of the Other military variants and derivatives listing. The information is listed as being sourced from a Czech magazine - Střeleckém magazíně, Samopal NDR, 08/2002, str.20-21 - although there is a discrepancy regarding the magazine size, the magazine data says 20-rd while the wiki listing gives 30-rd but nothing I could see in the magazine article provided by the Czech website indicated a 30-rd mag (however my ability to read Czech is limited to recognizing a few words and that's about all).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckle...3#East_Germany