Initiative in 4E

[Raellus]

Been thinking a bit about Initiative. Automatically giving the PCs higher initiative than the OPFOR kind of stacks the deck in favor of the good guys. Ref'ing 2.2, I was always a little loosey-goosey with the initiative order, almost always allowing the PCs to act first every round. With 4e's suppression rules, I think that might be game-breaking.

I agree with many of you that an initiative system should take into consideration characters' (both PCs and NPCs) competence, experience, tactical understanding, etc. Some people are just more decisive and quicker thinking than others, especially under pressure.

I don't have a lot of experience with other systems, but I'm familiar with how D&D 5e handles initiative, and I think something similar could work for 4e T2k. Please note, I have not field tested this system yet.

CUF scores are assigned a modifier which can be applied when drawing initiative (players have the option of not applying the modifier). PCs and NPCs draw initiative cards, as per the the rules, but PCs modify their roles up or down based on their respective CUF scores, as follows:

A = -2
B = -1
C = 0
D = +1

So, for example, Zeke, with CUF score B, draws the #5 initiative card. His initiative is now 4, if he so chooses. Rawlins, with a CUF score of A, draws an 8. His initiative is 6.

IIRC, most combat builds (among the archetypes, at least), start the game with CUF C. Most non-elite enemy NPCs also have CUF C. What I think this means is, early in the campaign, the odds re initiative will probably be close to even in most combat encounters. But if the PCs play smart and survive their first few firefights, they'll start to gain an edge.

Thoughts?

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[unipus]

All of that is part of why I really don't give much of a damn about initiative, beyond what the narrative sets up. It starts to get very fiddly.

Initiative in the first turn matters very much. After that, it certainly matters, but not as much as the ongoing effects of suppression. If you're able to take out or suppress a few guys in the first and second turns then initiative becomes a very secondary concern after that.

FWIW, other FL rulesets, such as Coriolis, do have an initiative system where you get bonuses for using smaller weapons, which makes a lot of sense. It's also not my favorite system but I'm not sure why they outright abandoned it here.

[Tegyrius]

I've been chewing on this and my inclination is to do away with the card system entirely and adapt the system from Five Parsecs From Home (which, admittedly, is one of my shiny new toys, and thus biases me more favorably toward it). Here's an untested alpha draft:

Each combat round has three initiative phases. In order, these are Quick, Enemy, and Slow.

At the beginning of every combat round, each PC and allied NPC makes a Coolness Under Fire check (adding unit morale if within LOS or voice/radio contact of an ally). This check receives a -1 penalty if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF A and a +1 bonus if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF D. The Combat Awareness specialty's effect becomes a +1 bonus to initiative.

1. Quick phase: every PC/ally who succeeded with the CUF check
   
2. Enemy phase: every opponent
   
3. Slow phase: every PC/ally who failed the CUF check

In each phase, characters may act in any order.

- C.

[Ursus Maior]

If you meddle with initiative slot allocation, you will end up with (N)PCs occupying the same slot. How do you deal with that? Do they act at the same time or do they act in a separate order and if so, how is that determined?

I agree with the sentiment, that turn order after the first turn is largely unimportant. And if you want to make sure or more likely, you go before your enemy (especially in the first turn), then 4E gives you three options for that: Invest in Combat Awareness and draw two cards, invest in Recon to ambush your enemy or find someone who draws a lower card than you and switch turn order with them.

I think that leaves a lot of choices for skill & competence as well as small unit tactics.

[leonpoi]

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesn’t always guarantee going first.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesn’t always guarantee going first.

That's how I'd do it.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesn’t always guarantee going first.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't players most likely be hoping for a lower initiative number (i.e. 1 goes before 10, so a higher roll is a later turn slot)?

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[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

If you meddle with initiative slot allocation, you will end up with (N)PCs occupying the same slot. How do you deal with that? Do they act at the same time or do they act in a separate order and if so, how is that determined?

When I've run other initiative systems that have slotted sides/teams/squads rather than individuals, I've never had an issue with my players deciding who goes in which order. It usually helps them smoothly handle coordinated actions, especially when order of operations matters in tasks like like breach/bang/clear. On the ref's side of the screen, the same applies: NPCs act in whatever order is logical for their assumed degree of competence.

- C.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

When I've run other initiative systems that have slotted sides/teams/squads rather than individuals, I've never had an issue with my players deciding who goes in which order. It usually helps them smoothly handle coordinated actions, especially when order of operations matters in tasks like like breach/bang/clear. On the ref's side of the screen, the same applies: NPCs act in whatever order is logical for their assumed degree of competence.

- C.

If more than one person goes on the same number (or on the same Initiative Step/Phase in V2.2), I have everyone perform their action and declare the actions are simultaneous. I have had two opponents take each other out of the fight with this rule.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I've been chewing on this and my inclination is to do away with the card system entirely and adapt the system from Five Parsecs From Home (which, admittedly, is one of my shiny new toys, and thus biases me more favorably toward it). Here's an untested alpha draft:

Each combat round has three initiative phases. In order, these are Quick, Enemy, and Slow.

At the beginning of every combat round, each PC and allied NPC makes a Coolness Under Fire check (adding unit morale if within LOS or voice/radio contact of an ally). This check receives a -1 penalty if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF A and a +1 bonus if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF D. The Combat Awareness specialty's effect becomes a +1 bonus to initiative.

1. Quick phase: every PC/ally who succeeded with the CUF check
   
2. Enemy phase: every opponent
   
3. Slow phase: every PC/ally who failed the CUF check

In each phase, characters may act in any order.

I've been running with this house rule since I started my current campaign (1e timeline, 4e rules) in January. We're currently 12 sessions and about 8 combats into it and it seems to be working fairly well. The final version is a bit more streamlined - I dropped the modifiers for enemy CUF:

At the beginning of each round, each player rolls Coolness Under Fire (adding Unit Morale if the PC is within voice or visual contact of a teammate). With success, they act in the fast phase, before all NPCs. With failure, they act in the slow phase, after all NPCs. Characters in each phase may act in any sequence and players may (briefly) discuss tactics and order of operations before declaring actions.

My observation in play is that this incentivizes keeping the team close (no lone-wolfing), rewards both individual proficiency (Coolness Under Fire) and team cohesion (Unit Morale), and allows the sort of coordinated action that we see in both documentary and cinematic examinations of small unit tactics.

- C.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I
My observation in play is that this incentivizes keeping the team close (no lone-wolfing), rewards both individual proficiency (Coolness Under Fire) and team cohesion (Unit Morale), and allows the sort of coordinated action that we see in both documentary and cinematic examinations of small unit tactics.

- C.

Agreed.

I have some observations on initiative coming up soon, from my own play experience.

[Tegyrius]

I should note that in our last combat scene, two PCs were detached for sniping and recon. They subsequently separated from one another before combat began. The PCs have no radios and I ruled that the two who'd gone solo were effectively out of voice communication with one another. The difference between using only CUF for initiative and using CUF + Unit Morale was starkly illuminated.

As an additional benefit, this system still works in Forge/Foundry (my group's virtual tabletop of choice) with no software tweaks.

No one has taken Combat Awareness, but the easiest way to integrate it with this system seems to be a flat +1 bonus to initiative checks, in keeping with the functionality of most other specialties.

- C.

[leonpoi]

Yes. Start High and count down was my thinking also