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Old 12-29-2022, 02:23 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Talking Revisiting Prime Base

Submitted for general discussion…

Been doing some research lately into what I call Sigma Base (the backup command base of the Project; for an upcoming campaign.) And after acquiring a wild hair in my fourth point of contact, I made the decision not to reuse Prime Base. The research is into exactly what may be a workable underground base. It is IMHO, very likely that Prime Base is based on some very serious flaws i.e. there is no need to build large cylinders under ground.

A survey on underground buildings, especially in the United States shows some 5,000+ private homes and in excess of 600+ government/military/private facilities. Perhaps the shocking part of this is that only a small percentage (19%) are cylindrical!?!

The most common type of facility is a series of main tunnels, ranging from three to as many as fifteen running parallel and connected with multiple side tunnels and multiple levels.

The most common feature is the use of heavily reinforced cement to form the thick walls/floors/ceilings with many mentions of “burster layers” to provide additional protection in military facilities.

The NORAD Operations Center (NORADOC)at Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Station/Cheyenne Mountain Complex, is perhaps the best known of the non-tower facility. (please refer to the YouTube videos “Cheyenne Mountain Complex and Future House in China” and “A Look Inside NORAD, The Secret Government Facility.”)

The complex is built under 2,000 feet of granite covering an area of five acres. Fifteen three-story buildings are protected from movement (earthquake or explosion) by a system of coiled springs that the buildings rest on and flexible pipe connectors to limit the effect of any movement. The interior of the “cavern” blasted out by over 500 tons of high explosives is plated in welded steel to protect the facility from an EMP attack. The complex is the only high-altitude Department of Defense facility certified to be able to sustain an electromagnetic pulse (EMP). The complex can house up to 800 personnel and features a medical facility, BX, cafeteria and fitness centers. (Hmmm).

NORADOC is built to withstand a 30 megaton nuclear explosion as close as 1.2 miles. Within the access tunnel are sets of 25-ton blast doors. These doors are so well designed/built that they can always be opened when need. These doors can withstand the blast wave of a nearby nuclear explosion. There is also a network of blast values with unique filters for NBCR contaminants.

Alongside the main complex is a support annex with its own power plant, HVAC system and water supply that is designed to provide a 99.999% degree of reliability of its electricity, water, air conditioning, power, and other support systems. According to the 21st Mission Support Group, the threats, in descending order of likelihood, that the complex may face are "medical emergencies, natural disasters, civil disorder, a conventional attack, an electromagnetic pulse attack, a cyber or information attack, chemical or biological or radiological attack, an improvised nuclear attack, a limited nuclear attack, [and] a general nuclear attack." The least likely events are the most hazardous.

There is more water produced by mountain springs than the base requires, and a 1,500,000 gallon reservoir ensures that even in event of fire, there is enough water to meet the facility's needs. A reservoir of 4,500,000 gallon of water is used as a heat sink. There is a "massive" reservoir for diesel fuel and a "huge" battery bank with redundant power generators.

All-in-all a most impressive facility….and nary a cylinder in site.
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Old 12-30-2022, 01:33 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Isn't this kind of where we ended up back in 2015 or so when discussing Prime Base before? I remember making quick mockups of tunnels connecting long vaults in a grid pattern, tunnels with the vaults going off at angles to minimize turns and others. Cylinders don't make much sense until you are housing a cylindrical object to shoot out of it.
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Old 12-30-2022, 02:02 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Don't we always revisit Prime Base?

When we originally debated Prime, it was more about assisting Terry with the rewrite, so I approached the original thread by trying to stay within the canon.

Sigma Base will be my own campaign so I feel free to abuse/misuse/and rewrite to set the needs of my own little group of players.
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Old 12-30-2022, 02:15 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Anyhow, so running the research convinced me that several tunnels would be the best layout, and I'm planning at least two, possibly three levels.

One of the levels will be an extensive manufacturing facility.

And just to add a twist for the players, A MARS Special Operations team will be based for continental-wide adventures.
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Old 12-31-2022, 08:55 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Have you considered something like SubTropolis in Kansas City?
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Old 12-31-2022, 09:08 AM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
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The terrain will dictate the type of structure underground that they would use.

In the case of Primes Cannon location, there are a lot of horizontal mines in the area. Tunnels would be the best option as discussed in 2015.

How feasible would it be to build 4 story cylinders under the guess of a mining project?

Since TML is now in caretaker mode, we really don't know what Terry had in mind for the revised Prime Base, outside of the stuff posted here and on the mailing list back in the day.
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Old 12-31-2022, 09:11 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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I've looked at it, but I'm not going to copy much of it.
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Last edited by dragoon500ly; 12-31-2022 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 12-31-2022, 09:19 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Prime Base was started in 1963 and completed in 1982. Sigma Base is started in 1978 and completed in 1986.
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Last edited by dragoon500ly; 12-31-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 12-31-2022, 09:29 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Near the proposed site of the facility, I've located a nice little valley that is used as grazing land for a couple of ranches.

So...a vehicle access tunnel runs from the valley floor and runs up to a building in the facility with camouflaged blast doors at each end (running roughly east-west) and a third blast door set midway. This tunnel runs roughly southwards and terminates at a blast door which opens into a sort of airlock with a blast door at the far end and a security complex covering the space.

Entry past the last blast door introduces you to a secondary tunnel running east-west where you then meet up with one of the four main north-south tunnels (basically two tunnels on either side of the gateway.

The main tunnels will be connected at each end and at two mid points for a total of four secondary tunnels.
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Old 12-31-2022, 12:55 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
Prime Base was started in 1963 and completed in 1982. Sigma Base is started in 1978 and completed in 1986.
It says the base was started in the late 1960's and was completed about 1980, but it also says it was completed over a 10 year period. So lets just say construction went into high gear starting in 1970.

The base in finished in 1980 with what seems to be full fusion power generation. We can surmise that Prime was built in stages, but it really says nowhere in TM1-1 or adventures when full size fusion power has invented by the project. It only says small sized fusion power pack in 1979 and in 1987 the project retrofitted itself with fusion to "stored" equipment. So Prime has to have been built with fusion in mind from the beginning.

Do we surmise that Prime was built from the beginning with a fusion power source, just on a large scale and the project was developing/researching small sized fusion in hopes of completing this before the war date Bruce saw?

Or was it retrofitted between 1979 and 1987 to now include fusion? We have the Support cylinder Level 13, Power and Light, which describes a rather large fusion bottle, which would be really tricky to retrofit into the lowest level of the Support cylinder.
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:16 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuke11 View Post
The base in finished in 1980 with what seems to be full fusion power generation. We can surmise that Prime was built in stages, but it really says nowhere in TM1-1 or adventures when full size fusion power has invented by the project. It only says small sized fusion power pack in 1979 and in 1987 the project retrofitted itself with fusion to "stored" equipment. So Prime has to have been built with fusion in mind from the beginning.
We really need to look at the achievements of the Project in the building timeline to try and figure out a reasonable place for large fusion reactors based on what we actually have today. According to TM1-1, Morrow scientists perfected cryogenics in 1964 with refinements through 1989. It is indicated that the 1964 process worked with volunteers being frozen and unfrozen to no ill affect in a statistically very large number of cases.

So if they were able to achieve that in 1964 while we still cannot do that today, but today we have had a number of laboratory successes with fusion that produced more energy than consumed, it can logically be assumed that they had large reactors working in the early days of the Project. It is important to note that the need for vehicles that did not need to be refueled frequently may have been identified and prompted Bruce to go into the future looking specifically for this technology to be retrofitted into vehicles and power trailers, as the fusion technology they had may not have scaled to such small sizes.

None of this strictly violates canon even though canon does not directly speak to this either.
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Old 01-07-2023, 08:32 PM
nduffy nduffy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
We really need to look at the achievements of the Project in the building timeline to try and figure out a reasonable place for large fusion reactors based on what we actually have today. According to TM1-1, Morrow scientists perfected cryogenics in 1964 with refinements through 1989. It is indicated that the 1964 process worked with volunteers being frozen and unfrozen to no ill affect in a statistically very large number of cases.

So if they were able to achieve that in 1964 while we still cannot do that today, but today we have had a number of laboratory successes with fusion that produced more energy than consumed, it can logically be assumed that they had large reactors working in the early days of the Project. It is important to note that the need for vehicles that did not need to be refueled frequently may have been identified and prompted Bruce to go into the future looking specifically for this technology to be retrofitted into vehicles and power trailers, as the fusion technology they had may not have scaled to such small sizes.

None of this strictly violates canon even though canon does not directly speak to this either.
Rabbit hole of interest. There is a large super collider complex in Waxahachie TX that was abandoned. Its still there. there are even miles of the tunnel dug that were never filled in, but instead were filled with water to preserve them. There is a lot of underground space for this thing... Serious potential for a base. https://interestingengineering.com/s...d-texas-desert..
Yes its a cylinder, but to find an abandoned project, and be able to re utilize it or turn it into a regional base or Prime back up would be a great opportunity. just my 2 cents... I live not far from this place... thats how I learned about it..
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Old 01-07-2023, 10:40 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nduffy View Post
Rabbit hole of interest. There is a large super collider complex in Waxahachie TX that was abandoned. Its still there. there are even miles of the tunnel dug that were never filled in, but instead were filled with water to preserve them. There is a lot of underground space for this thing... Serious potential for a base. https://interestingengineering.com/s...d-texas-desert..
Yes its a cylinder, but to find an abandoned project, and be able to re utilize it or turn it into a regional base or Prime back up would be a great opportunity. just my 2 cents... I live not far from this place... thats how I learned about it..
I remember this, but didn't realize that the tunnels had been preserved. As I recall, the tunneling was not completed, so it is not really a circular ring, but rather a nice arc segment of a torus. The arc is tens of kilometers long, so it would not be that hard to seal off a few kilometers for a base.
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Old 01-08-2023, 08:07 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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One of the major issues that I see with using abandoned complexes or anything that is in a public database is the lack of any real secrecy. Everything ranges from Youtubers searching "abandoned places," to drug cartels in search of that new laboratory location. Not to mention that certain intelligence agencies may report that location as a military target for round two or three of any nuclear exchange.

The effort would have to be to construct a secret base in an inhospitable location (aka Prime Base) or to covertly dig a base (aka Sigma Base).

Prime Base's location allows for the construction of large cylinders and an extensive support annex. This allows the Project to undertake a major mining operation.

Sigma Base's location almost requires the use of a tunnel boring machine or two to dig simple tunnels under the cover of a large complex with a heavy traffic flow.
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