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Old 06-03-2021, 05:53 PM
Fusilier Fusilier is offline
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Default M1044 HMMWV Windshield/Windows

I'm looking for some information on the windows for the Humvee M1044 version. It's slightly armored vehicle with HF2 HS2 HR2 stats, but what about the windows? I know there's versions of the Humvee out there with bullet resistant glass, would this version be one?

If the answer is yes, do the door windows roll down/up, or are they fixed in place, like say, in a civilian armored truck.

Appreciate any information.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:59 PM
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The Osprey HMMWV book indicates that the USMC HMMWVs, which included the M1044, were procured with "supplemental armor":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
... which included polycarbonate windows and steel-reinforced doors. The supplemental armor was not able to withstand close-quarter fire, but was intended to protect the crew from shrapnel and long-range small-arms fire and could stop fragments equivalent to a 44-grain fragment traveling at 2,132 ft/sec (650 m/s).
ETA: Page 23 of that same book has a photo of an M1045A1 (USMC TOW carrier) with Marines hanging their arms out the windows. Presumably, then, the M1044's windows roll down too.

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Last edited by Tegyrius; 06-03-2021 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 06-03-2021, 09:19 PM
Fusilier Fusilier is offline
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I've seen live fire demonstrations and the glass performed against small arms fire a lot better than how it reads with the Osprey citation, so I must be getting the Humvee types mixed up.

My players have a M1044 and I've been using AV2 for the front glass (with the glass devaluing with each hit as it degrades). After posting I got to thinking and I don't want to retcon things though, so I guess what I'll do is say at some point the Humvee was damaged and while at the depot had the glass that I was originally thinking of installed, but only for the front (since it the door glass hasn't been relevant as of yet).

Thanks a lot, appreciate it. I'll have to get that issue of Osprey too.
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Old 06-03-2021, 10:44 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier View Post
I've seen live fire demonstrations and the glass performed against small arms fire a lot better than how it reads with the Osprey citation, so I must be getting the Humvee types mixed up.

My players have a M1044 and I've been using AV2 for the front glass (with the glass devaluing with each hit as it degrades). After posting I got to thinking and I don't want to retcon things though, so I guess what I'll do is say at some point the Humvee was damaged and while at the depot had the glass that I was originally thinking of installed, but only for the front (since it the door glass hasn't been relevant as of yet).

Thanks a lot, appreciate it. I'll have to get that issue of Osprey too.
Here's a video of Mr. Guns & Gear shooting a Hummer window with 5 rounds of 7.62mmR ammo. NO PENETRATION.
https://youtu.be/k8ffXGAzTkl

This is a video from Texas Armoring showing a car with NIJ Level 4 windows being shot at by an AKM.
https://youtu.be/J8i5d5toEDk

These videos prove that the Hummer's windows are at least NIJ Level 3 (rifle) and more likely NIJ Level 4 (rifle) in construction.

In my game, the AV's are

NIJ Level 1 = 1/4 AV [multiplied by Pen]
NIJ Level 2/2A = 1/2 AV [multiplied by Pen]
NIJ Level 3A = 1 AV [multiplied by Pen]
NIJ Level 3(Rifle)/SAPI Plate = 2 AV [multiplied by Pen]
NIJ Level 3+(Rifle) = 3 AV [multiplied by Pen]
NIJ Level 4(Rifle)/ESAPI Plate = 4 AV [multiplied by Pen]

BUT I also now do Penetration based on the round's VELOCITY modified by its SECTIONAL DENSITY (unlike GDW's original formula). My Penetration Numbers are:
4,000fps+ of velocity = 1/2 Pen
3,000fps to 3,999fps of velocity = 1 Pen
2,000fps to 2,999fps of velocity = 2 Pen
1,000fps to 1,999fps of velocity = 3 Pen
999fps or less of velocity = 4 Pen

Here's an old video from the Wound Channel showing a 55gr M193 ball round punching through an NIJ Level 3(Rifle) plate because it broke the 3k velocity threshold. The same round will bounce off of this type of plate once the velocity drops to below 3k fps in speed.
https://youtu.be/oMYkEMhPsO8

Last edited by swaghauler; 06-03-2021 at 11:12 PM. Reason: was in a hurry and misprinted my chart
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Old 06-03-2021, 10:50 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Corrected Mr. Guns & Gear link:
https://youtu.be/K8ffXGAzTkI
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Old 06-03-2021, 11:03 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Armor is deceptively simple in its construction. There are other threads in this forum where we discuss this but I repaired armor for THREE different armored car companies (whom I worked for transporting money too) and I can tell you that a NIJ Level 3(Rifle) van contained 3/8" case-hardened (on its face) mild steel, 1" of cork or styrofoam and the 16 gauge outer skin of a Ford E350 Econoline van. This combination WOULD STOP rifle rounds.

Here is a video made by Demo Ranch of a 1/4" MILD steel plate "flex sealed" to a thick (1") rubber mat used in horse stables with concrete floors stopping EVERY handgun round out there COLD.

https://youtu.be/uj1cm8WUGfg

swag
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:03 PM
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Swag, I've always wanted to ask someone in the know about armor if that trick used on Burn Notice would actually work: The heroes stuffed thick phone books between the inner and outer panels of the truck body (and used real bullet-resistant glass and run-flat tires) and voila! -- armored vehicle!

Would that actually work?
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
Here is a video made by Demo Ranch of a 1/4" MILD steel plate "flex sealed" to a thick (1") rubber mat used in horse stables with concrete floors stopping EVERY handgun round out there COLD.

https://youtu.be/uj1cm8WUGfg

swag
Sounds like the same basic idea as NERA (Non-Explosive Reactive Armor), found on a growing number of the latest armored vehicles.
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Swag, I've always wanted to ask someone in the know about armor if that trick used on Burn Notice would actually work: The heroes stuffed thick phone books between the inner and outer panels of the truck body (and used real bullet-resistant glass and run-flat tires) and voila! -- armored vehicle!

Would that actually work?
Mythbusters did an episode where they did just that. IIRC, the phone books stopped 5.56mm and some 7.62mm rounds, but did not stop .50 cal BMG.

EDIT: The audio quality of this clip from that episode isn't very good, but at about 1:43, the team gives their assessment of the experiment results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctauhnIjnso

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Last edited by Raellus; 06-04-2021 at 03:37 PM.
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  #10  
Old 06-04-2021, 04:45 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
Armor is deceptively simple in its construction. There are other threads in this forum where we discuss this but I repaired armor for THREE different armored car companies (whom I worked for transporting money too) and I can tell you that a NIJ Level 3(Rifle) van contained 3/8" case-hardened (on its face) mild steel, 1" of cork or styrofoam and the 16 gauge outer skin of a Ford E350 Econoline van. This combination WOULD STOP rifle rounds.

Here is a video made by Demo Ranch of a 1/4" MILD steel plate "flex sealed" to a thick (1") rubber mat used in horse stables with concrete floors stopping EVERY handgun round out there COLD.

https://youtu.be/uj1cm8WUGfg

swag
Demo Ranch also shot an uparmored HMMWV windshield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpDIoFHZfRs&t=4s
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