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Old 05-04-2021, 09:17 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Default 470th Military Intelligence Brigade

Doing some research on the Panama Canal and came across some information on the 470th Military Intelligence Brigade including location in Panama, personnel and mission of each unit.

For V1 and also V2.2 with some minor reasoning to explain why the US didnt leave the Canal on time that unit would be there. And one of its biggest components was actually based in Orlando FL and might figure into campaigns there. Also for those looking at how many men would be in such a unit when the war started and then extrapolate what might still be around by 2000/2001

Brigade total - 1250 personnel

HHC - Corozal, Panama - 75 personnel (FYI Corozal is a sub-installation of Fort Clayton so they can be used interchangeably)

308th Military Intelligence Battalion - Corozal, Panama, Howard Air Force Base, Panama - 300 personnel

310th Military Intelligence Battalion - Corozal, Panama, Albrook Air Force Station, Panama - 200 personnel

747th Military Intelligence Battalion - Galeta Island, Panama - 150 personnel

Military Intelligence Battalion (Low Intensity) - assigned to the 513th Military Intelligence Brigade, attached to the 470th Brigade - Naval Training Center, Orlando FL - 550 personnel
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Last edited by Olefin; 05-04-2021 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:44 AM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Good find, but it looks like your missing a page.

Last edited by shrike6; 05-04-2021 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:13 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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oops - good catch there Shrike

and now with page 2 of the article attached with the actual break down of the mission and personnel
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:20 PM
lordroel lordroel is offline
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Doing some research on the Panama Canal and came across some information on the 470th Military Intelligence Brigade including location in Panama, personnel and mission of each unit.
Thanks Olefin, that answer a part of my question i think regarding the Panama Cnal being still under US control, but wich sise CivGov ore MilGov.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:45 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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I have an article that Chris Callahan put together a long time ago with the units that were there that I am working on to put out with the next fanzine. The question of MilGov versus CivGov control was addressed by him.

SOUTHCOM has DIA elements in it -which says they are reporting to MilGov since the DIA is with MilGov. They are at Fort Clayton

CivGov representatives are at Panama City

So it appears that both governments have representatives there - that would imply some kind of shared control - or that MilGov is tolerating the CivGov elements

His article has this:

The CIA has its own air force (or remnants thereof) located at Panama City Airport (PAC), which is 27 km NE of Panama City. The actual CivGov HQ is in Panama City itself, and includes the State Department, DEA, and Customs Service personnel which were originally assigned to SOUTHCOM before the split.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:31 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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Honestly, in the type of war where the USSR targeted oil fields for their future value, NTC Orlando should probably have been a target as well. It was the only Recruit Training Command for enlisted women, and had the Nuclear Field "A" School, doing basic nuclear training and rate training for Machinist's Mates, Electronics Technicians, and Electrician's Mates. After BRAC, the last command to remain was Nuclear Power Training Command, which stayed until 1998, so even the wildest T2K timeline should still have it there during the first nuclear exchanges. Until 1988 they also had the Naval Training Device Center, which managed all the Navy's simulator systems.

Striking NTC Orlando would eliminate the training facilities for:
All female enlisted Navy personnel
Many male enlisted Navy personnel
All enlisted personnel for the Submarine Service
Most engineering personnel for nuclear-powered surface combatants
All junior Submarine Warfare Officers
Many Surface Warfare Officers for nuclear-powered surface combatants
Naval Aviators tagged to become carrier XOs and COs

Sure, facilities can be replaced, but depending on the timeline, it also disables/eliminates the group responsible for the training devices that would be needed to set up a new training facility (and even if they had moved, it was less than 10 miles away to the Research Park at UCF). It hits at the logistics of replacing losses, which in my mind fits with the war of attrition that the T2K background posits. It's not on the list of place that got swatted with a 500kT or bigger warhead, but it should have gotten some coverage (especially since Martin had tons of materiel in Orlando - up to 1.4 million pounds of missiles and component parts at the Remote Area in the 90s, including 500 Patriot missiles, along with Hellfires and Copperheads).
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:43 PM
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Cant remember if Orlando did get nuked but the the Cape got CLOBBERED - its only 55 miles away - so have a feeling it wasnt a very pleasant place to be following the TDM - i.e. hey they missed us - yup but all our electronics got fried big time
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:53 PM
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FYI some details on the Military Intelligence Battalion (Low Intensity)

That is the actual name of the unit, originally activated in 1983 at Lakehurst, NJ and assigned to the 513th MI Brigade and then relocated to Honduras in July of that year. It was a provisional unit that didnt fully activate until Oct 1, 1989 while still in Honduras.

It got attached to the 407th, with the Alpha and Bravo Company at Soto Cano airbase in Honduras and the Charlie Company in Orlando and the HHC split between them. Delta Company was established in 1993 in Panama and stayed there till 1999. In 1993 Bravo and Charlie went from Honduras to Orlando and Alpha went from Seaborne Operations to and Operations Company and went to Orlando as well, completing the move by 1994.

The unit relocated to Fort Bliss, TX in 1997 and its now the 204th MI Battalion.

So looking at the timeline you would have Delta Company still in Panama for sure and possibly the other companies either in Orlando at the training center or relocated back to Honduras (most likely depending on what happened in Central America for V1 and V2.2)
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Cant remember if Orlando did get nuked but the the Cape got CLOBBERED - its only 55 miles away - so have a feeling it wasnt a very pleasant place to be following the TDM - i.e. hey they missed us - yup but all our electronics got fried big time
Just in my T2Ku, the warheads that were to hit Cape Canaveral missed -- badly -- except for the ones that were taken out by missile defense. Columbia is sitting on the runway, as the air raid sirens went off as the Columbia crew exited the vehicle after a military mission, and Endeavor is in the VAB, waiting for a launch that never came. There was a small, 3-foot wave that lapped gently over the Cape.

Almost all of the other shuttles, along with OV10, OV11, and OV12 (which were built specifically for the military) were at Vandenberg, which likewise was saved due to poor aiming, computer errors, missile defense and fratricide. Discovery, however, was attacked in orbit by a Soviet spaceplane and was hit by several minelets, which damaged Discovery enough that it could not conduct a normal reentry. To keep Discovery from the Soviets, the crew deliberately deorbited Discovery to go down in the Pacific.

Just my T2Ku.
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Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 05-05-2021 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Forgot info, misspellings, bunch of stuff
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Old 05-05-2021, 10:59 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Just in my T2Ku, the warheads that were to hit Cape Canaveral missed -- badly -- except for the ones that were taken out by missile defense. Columbia is sitting on the runway, as the air raid sirens went off as the Columbia crew exited the vehicle after a military mission, and Endeavor is in the VAB, waiting for a launch that never came. There was a small, 3-foot wave that lapped gently over the Cape.

Almost all of the other shuttles, along with OV10, OV11, and OV12 (which were built specifically for the military) were at Vandenberg, which likewise was saved due to poor aiming, computer errors, missile defense and fratricide. Discovery, however, was attacked in orbit by a Soviet spaceplane and was hit by several minelets, which damaged Discovery enough that it could not conduct a normal reentry. To keep Discovery from the Soviets, the crew deliberately deorbited Discovery to go down in the Pacific.

Just my T2Ku.
Always said that someone in the writers had a real Jones to want to put a lot of hurt on Cape Canaveral - they over targeted it big time - a 100kt nuke just for the VAB??? Talk about making sure they got the target
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
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they over targeted it big time - a 100kt nuke just for the VAB??? Talk about making sure they got the target
To make up for inaccuracy the Soviets did not use many small nukes.


This chart really shows how few low yield devices they have (again comparably).

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/wrjp159r.html


Posted originally in this thread.
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....SLBM#post65649
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:40 PM
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To make up for inaccuracy the Soviets did not use many small nukes.


This chart really shows how few low yield devices they have (again comparably).

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/wrjp159r.html


Posted originally in this thread.
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....SLBM#post65649
I know - I think some of the canon authors just made up warhead yields at the time - Urban Guerrilla says its a one megaton strike with it broken up into ten 100kt warheads specifically hitting individual pads/launch complexes plus the VAB
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:34 AM
stilleto69 stilleto69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Just in my T2Ku, the warheads that were to hit Cape Canaveral missed -- badly -- except for the ones that were taken out by missile defense. Columbia is sitting on the runway, as the air raid sirens went off as the Columbia crew exited the vehicle after a military mission, and Endeavor is in the VAB, waiting for a launch that never came. There was a small, 3-foot wave that lapped gently over the Cape.

Almost all of the other shuttles, along with OV10, OV11, and OV12 (which were built specifically for the military) were at Vandenberg, which likewise was saved due to poor aiming, computer errors, missile defense and fratricide. Discovery, however, was attacked in orbit by a Soviet spaceplane and was hit by several minelets, which damaged Discovery enough that it could not conduct a normal reentry. To keep Discovery from the Soviets, the crew deliberately deorbited Discovery to go down in the Pacific.

Just my T2Ku.
Same here, in my T2Ku, the Soviets hit Cape Canaveral, but the only warheads that made it hit some of the old disused launch pads, or landed out to sea and the resulting tidal wave is what hit the Cape.
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