Alternate History in Twilight

[GDWFan]

A Long time ago i ran a T2K/Morrow project type game using T2K V2 rules.
It started with a few prequel missions in the early war. Then it reallt started at Kalisz. The players were all SF type of guys, but the game was very challenging so it kind of evened out. I used some made up early proxy wars as the first couple pre missions. I ended up much later using Gurps Alternate Worlds to explain how the MP had originated. The campaign ended shortly after this revelation but it had a very long run compared to most games ive played.

This got me to thinking about the amount of forces comitted and length of the war. Using the GURPS books system for creating an alternate world it all comes down to the point in time where history deviates from the baseline history of earth, even tiny things can cause the shift.

So if you moved the deviation of history back to the late 70's or early 80's, and i don't mean outbreak of war but a different election result or action of one of the governments or action of a minor government. This could allow a new arms race or series of proxy wars somewhere in south america or africa,
It would allow newer tech to be introduced a bit earlier, or more drafting of civilians and positioned and hardening of troops.

Just some thoughts i had thinking about that game and looking the morrow project info kato has up.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by GDWFan

So if you moved the deviation of history back to the late 70's or early 80's, and i don't mean outbreak of war but a different election result or action of one of the governments or action of a minor government. This could allow a new arms race or series of proxy wars somewhere in south america or africa,

The alternative TW2K campaign background I've been fiddling with doesn't follow the canon of v1 or v2, but it tries to keep as close as possible.

The big points of divergence is Gorbachev is assassinated by a conspiracy of Kremlin and Red Chinese reactionaries in 1989, blowing up his plane while he's on his way to visit China. Both groups see Glasnost and Peristroika as the real enemy, not each other, and use the "crisis" to mobilize their armies and crush internal dissent. China squashes the pro-democracy movement (again) and the Sovs crush their ethnic minorities and the independence movements in eastern Europe. That puts the Sovs and the Chinese as allies or at least neutral during the Twilight War.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Let's face it. All GM's have tweak this or that. Some more than others...So in reality they are all alternatives to the History listed in canon depending on version of the game...lol

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Let's face it. All GM's have tweak this or that. Some more than others...So in reality they are all alternatives to the History listed in canon depending on version of the game...lol

That's a good point... I mean, is there any GM on this list who runs TW2K exactly per the canon? V.1, v.2 or even 2013? Anyone?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

I would say you would be hard press to find a GM who went entirely by the "book" with everything....

[Legbreaker]

Even I, who everyone appears to incorrectly think am completely against individual thought and expression, agree wholeheartedly that nothing stays the same.
Published materials are a start point, nothing more. From then on it's up to the GM and players to shape their world using whatever resources and ideas they want.

If all a group wants to use is the ruleset, or even just the concept, so be it. It's just a game and intended for nothing more than entertainment.

[Abbott Shaull]

Was I just struck by lighting? Or quick some pinch me, this must be a season of Dallas playing.....

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Was I just struck by lighting? Or quick some pinch me, this must be a season of Dallas playing.....

Changes in opinion are always possible. How solid that change is can only be analyzed as a new body of work presents itself.

[Legbreaker]

My opinion has not changed. It has always been this simple however many people seem to have simply misunderstood.

All I've ever said is don't screw with canon and then force others to use the result. Use it as a base if you think your personal work should be accepted (and used) by all.

If you do change things, say so - don't attempt to pass it off as canon. Let others decide to use, or not use based on it's merits, not on the writers personal opinion "this is the way the T2K world must be".

For myself, I feel everyone here has made valuable contributions to the game as a whole. While I'm unlikely to use Web's "Thunder Empire" material for example, I can appreciate the effort he's put in and the quality of the resultant work. Same goes for anything everyone else has done.

The DC Group and their Czech sourcebook is an example of expanding on canon - it has not replaced what we know from the published GDW materials. While I don't feel it should be declared official canon, it is most certainly following the spirit of the canon arguement, and not even the most fervent of canonites should have any qualms in using it.

One more point - Please read everything somebody posts. Don't simply skim it and expect to be able to respond appropriately. This is where misunderstandings and bad feelings come from.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

All I've ever said is don't screw with canon and then force others to use the result.

Just curious how can anyone "force" you to use anything.

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps "force" isn't the right word. Mislead is probably a better way of saying it although even that isn't quite right.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Perhaps "force" isn't the right word. Mislead is probably a better way of saying it although even that isn't quite right.

V 1.5 is simply a different universe. Same as V 3.0.

On a personal level I always follow the words of of my namesake

Absorb what is useful.
Reject what is useless.
and add what is specifically your own.

However those "what"s are different for every person so to me having more information available is much more important than how that information is codified.

[GDWFan]

This isnt the argument that I was looking for lol
I more meant that what type of things could you go back and change delete or add to real history that would lead to a better continuation of gov plan, more fallout shelters, a longer selective service draft, and mainly a more built up military for all countries.

Im thinking assassins natural disasters election results war.

My best ex. would be the oil refinery attack in red storm rising, im thinking about changing the make up of combatants before the T2K history even alters.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by GDWFan

This isnt the argument that I was looking for lol
I more meant that what type of things could you go back and change delete or add to real history that would lead to a better continuation of gov plan, more fallout shelters, a longer selective service draft, and mainly a more built up military for all countries.

Im thinking assassins natural disasters election results war.

My best ex. would be the oil refinery attack in red storm rising, im thinking about changing the make up of combatants before the T2K history even alters.

The DC group has graciously cracked the cover on a few of their plans and they have some pretty ingenious solutions for most if not all war parties (and I have only seen a very small fraction of the whole). Unfortunately we have to wait and see them all.

As for my game I never liked the MILGOV/CIVGOV split so after the first nukes in Europe, I had Senate pre approve deputy Secretaries for the Department Secretary position (in the event of their death) this nearly doubles the number of people in the Continuation of Government Plan and allows the departments to continue to have a leader even if the there is one death and the senate cannot convene.

[Grimace]

A time ago, which seems a lot longer than the few that it has been, I was working with the late T.R. (rest in peace, my friend) to come up with an alternative timeline along the lines of what you're talking about GDWFan. We used a lot of real world events, tweaked them ever so slightly the way they "could have" gone and ended up with a Twilight war that dealt with a bit more military build up than what occurred in regular Twilight.

Our main catalyst for initial combat was the real-world famine that hit North Korea back in the 90's. From there we used other things around the world...former Yugoslavian nations...Italy electing a borderline facist as a leader...stuff that seems really strange but was either true or was just a slight nudge away from being the truth.

In the end, we had a timeline that brought us to the nuclear armageddon that is in Twilight. Rather than trying to reinvent or twist the Twilight: 2000 history we just decided to make the game we were working on a "what if". A lot of work was done, but a lot still needed to be done.

[Targan]

R.I.P. T.R. Gone but not forgotten.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

R.I.P. T.R. Gone but not forgotten.

When going through the archives, I saw may many posts from TR. A good man gone too soon.

[GDWFan]

Grimace thats about what im talking about, the main difference with mine is that i built it up and modernized it in the 80's early 90's with small wars in south america and africa and the merc 2000 australian indonesian war. Went Webs way with a somewhat more economicly liberal but politically hard-line soviet union then picked up most of a hybrid T2K timeline. I ran the game for almost 4 years so we got way into it.

[sglancy12]

Well, as long as we're on the subject of alternative histories...

I'm presuming that everyone's seen this site?

The Alternative History Wiki

The place is jam-packed with stubs and 1/2 formed ideas and very little of it is well-developed... except this

Doomsday: 1983

Here's the setup:

Col. Stanislav Petrov is NOT the officer on duty at the Serpukhov-15 bunker near Moscow. A different officer on duty at the bunker misreads a computer glitch as an American attack, sparking global nuclear war between NATO, the Warsaw Pact, and China. This timeline is the story of mankind's re-emergence from the aftermath.

Now, 25 years later, mankind is seemingly securing its survival. New coalitions and alliances have emerged from the ruins of near-total nuclear destruction and the League of Nations foundation is the first sign a better future for mankind. But a new threat is rising in the heart of the Old World once more.

So it isn't really TW2K, because what we seem interested in is the world as it's sliding downhill, about to begin pulling itself up, just a couple of years after the nuclear war. Doomsday 1983 takes place an entire generation after the war. However, check out the maps and the rather impressive collection of flags that have been created for the alt hist.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by Grimace

A time ago, which seems a lot longer than the few that it has been, I was working with the late T.R. (rest in peace, my friend) to come up with an alternative timeline along the lines of what you're talking about GDWFan. We used a lot of real world events, tweaked them ever so slightly the way they "could have" gone and ended up with a Twilight war that dealt with a bit more military build up than what occurred in regular Twilight.

Our main catalyst for initial combat was the real-world famine that hit North Korea back in the 90's. From there we used other things around the world...former Yugoslavian nations...Italy electing a borderline facist as a leader...stuff that seems really strange but was either true or was just a slight nudge away from being the truth.

In the end, we had a timeline that brought us to the nuclear armageddon that is in Twilight. Rather than trying to reinvent or twist the Twilight: 2000 history we just decided to make the game we were working on a "what if". A lot of work was done, but a lot still needed to be done.

I remember talking with T.R. (RIP, my friend) about this and he made a good point where a good POD to extend the USSR might have been where the 1991 coup could/would have succeeded if a sniper or two was less drunk and took out Boris Yeltsin as he stood on top of the BMP. What Yeltsin did might have rallied his cause but it is not a wise thing to do, especially when there is a ring of snipers around you just waiting to "bust a cap in ya." I think we could have extended the USSR to even today if that happened and onto 2020 at least.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Well, as long as we're on the subject of alternative histories...

I'm presuming that everyone's seen this site?

The Alternative History Wiki

The place is jam-packed with stubs and 1/2 formed ideas and very little of it is well-developed... except this

Doomsday: 1983

Here's the setup:

Col. Stanislav Petrov is NOT the officer on duty at the Serpukhov-15 bunker near Moscow. A different officer on duty at the bunker misreads a computer glitch as an American attack, sparking global nuclear war between NATO, the Warsaw Pact, and China. This timeline is the story of mankind's re-emergence from the aftermath.

Now, 25 years later, mankind is seemingly securing its survival. New coalitions and alliances have emerged from the ruins of near-total nuclear destruction and the League of Nations foundation is the first sign a better future for mankind. But a new threat is rising in the heart of the Old World once more.

So it isn't really TW2K, because what we seem interested in is the world as it's sliding downhill, about to begin pulling itself up, just a couple of years after the nuclear war. Doomsday 1983 takes place an entire generation after the war. However, check out the maps and the rather impressive collection of flags that have been created for the alt hist.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

I remember back in 1983 when I listen to local talkshow host (then), Perry Marshall on KDKA-AM here in Pittsburgh, one guy called up and he was very dire and serious. He predicted at the time where we would have a nuclear war with the USSR on July 31st, 1983. This was in June, I just started summer vacation then. Seeing this, it sort of makes the caller right in this timeline although he was 2 months off.

Chuck

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man 1966

I remember talking with T.R. (RIP, my friend) about this and he made a good point where a good POD to extend the USSR might have been where the 1991 coup could/would have succeeded if a sniper or two was less drunk and took out Boris Yeltsin as he stood on top of the BMP. What Yeltsin did might have rallied his cause but it is not a wise thing to do, especially when there is a ring of snipers around you just waiting to "bust a cap in ya." I think we could have extended the USSR to even today if that happened and onto 2020 at least.

Chuck

That was essentially what happened in V2.0 and 2.2. The 1991 coup failed and the hardliners took over. I can't recall if both Yeltsin or Gorbachev were killed, imprisoned, exiled or escaped. But it would be an interesting T2k scenario for a NATO spec ops team to rescue Gorby or Yeltsin from prison or gulag.

man, if I had more time, I'd GM something like that.

TR RIP

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

The alternative TW2K campaign background I've been fiddling with doesn't follow the canon of v1 or v2, but it tries to keep as close as possible.

The big points of divergence is Gorbachev is assassinated by a conspiracy of Kremlin and Red Chinese reactionaries in 1989, blowing up his plane while he's on his way to visit China. Both groups see Glasnost and Peristroika as the real enemy, not each other, and use the "crisis" to mobilize their armies and crush internal dissent. China squashes the pro-democracy movement (again) and the Sovs crush their ethnic minorities and the independence movements in eastern Europe. That puts the Sovs and the Chinese as allies or at least neutral during the Twilight War.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Yes, I like the idea of all communist countries uniting and fighting the west. It seems like in the v1 version with the Soviets and Chinese fighting each other, the PACT would have been too worn down to be that effective against NATO. Then you also had East German betraying the Soviets and a few other countries like Romania siding with NATO to add to that. It becomes very confusing and some of the stuff that happened just doesn't seem likely. Like Italy, France, and Belguim becoming turn coats. I don't see what benefits countries would have by doing that when they are countries surrounded by nations that would be against them?

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Like Italy, France, and Belguim becoming turn coats. I don't see what benefits countries would have by doing that when they are countries surrounded by nations that would be against them?

Historically, post-Stalin, the Soviet goal in the war was rolling over West Germany and splitting the NATO allies as much as possible. A conquest of all of western europe was seen as impossible (because it would certainly lead to a strategic nuclear exchange).

For the Netherlands, France and Belgium withdrawing from NATO might have at this point been a good move.

I agree on the Italian part, though. The multipolar conflict in Southern Europe seems vastly implausible.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Kemper Boyd

I agree on the Italian part, though. The multipolar conflict in Southern Europe seems vastly implausible.

Prior to 1914, war in Europe was also seen as implausible due to the complex web of alliances and treaties, but it only took one single relatively unimportant event to plunge much of the world into one of the most devastating wars in history.

[Kemper Boyd]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Prior to 1914, war in Europe was also seen as implausible due to the complex web of alliances and treaties, but it only took one single relatively unimportant event to plunge much of the world into one of the most devastating wars in history.

The situations arent analogous, since in Twilight 2000, most of Southern Europe acts in ways that are completely different from any political movements that happened in real life.

[sic1701]

I think it's great that each of you seem to make little adjustments or modifications to your game's history, to better fit what you and your players want to incorporate in it...whether it's starting the historical divergence earlier, say, in the 70s or by making up your own divergence or alteration to the events of the Twilight War.

For my own campaign back in The Day, I was more than a little unduly influenced by the extensive target list of the Morrow Project and devised my own target list that was a helluva lot more encompassing than the several dozen (listed) hits reflected in the 2nd Edition yellow core rulebook. And the backstory of my campaign world was modified to reflect events diverging from real-life dating from a second assassination attempt upon President Reagan in May of 1982, with substantial player input (many of whom were much more creative than myself). Subsequent events led to increasing military expenditures, many military programs being expanded and accelerated (120 B-1 and 40 B-2 bombers fictionally built, as opposed to 100 B-1s and 20 B-2s actually constructed; 25 Ohio-class SSBNs and 75 Los Angeles-class SSNs, instead of the 18 and 62 built in real-life; a few more Nimitz-class carriers, et al), many installations realigned and even a few new ones constructed (LeMay AFB...).

Additionally, the European theater of the Twilight War took place in 1988 in my modified backstory and did involve some theater chemical warfare but stopped shy of tactical nuclear war and events unfolded which led to a European Union and the downfall of the Soviet Union in late 1988 and the installation of Mikhail Gorbachev as President of Russia...at least, until he died in an attempted coup in August of 1991, that is. Also, an India-Pakistan war in early 1990 involved limited nuclear strikes by both sides, as well as a United Islamic Republic revealing a hidden nuclear capability (after the failure of the Israeli airstrike on the Osirak site in Iraq in 1981) during a modified Desert Storm. Most of the above was orchestrated to maneuver geopolitics and alliances into what I needed to achieve in order to have my backstory work out and providing the setting I was looking for.

I'd be interested to hear more from you folks on how you changed your campaign to differ from what history was posted in the rulebooks.