Out of Mothballs: Antiquated Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Raellus]

TIL that Romania had 47 SU-100 self-propelled tank destroyers in reserve as of 2016!

Does anyone know if the SU-100 is stat'ed in any T2k book (any version)?

What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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[Vespers War]

All of these are caveated with "last I heard," and may be out of date.

Cuba and North Korea still had T-34 tanks in service, and Vietnam was still using them as training vehicles.

Meanwhile Paraguay has 3 Shermans with diesel engines and the 105mm gun from the AMX-13, along with roughly a dozen Stuarts.

The Kostiantynivka incident suggests some of the Iosif Stalin tanks could be reactivated.

Taiwan has M41 Walker Bulldogs and M48 Pattons (I believe in reserve).

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

TIL that Romania had 47 SU-100 self-propelled tank destroyers in reserve as of 2016!

Does anyone know if the SU-100 is stat'ed in any T2k book (any version)?

What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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You doubted that Paul has it somewhere. Tisk tisk.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/PDFs/Twilight_2000_WWII.pdf

Page 95

[shrike6]

Paul has it on his main pages as well. http://www.pmulcahy.com/sp_guns/russian_sp_guns.htm scroll to the bottom.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

You doubted that Paul has it somewhere. Tisk tisk.

Not for a second. Of course Paul has it! I just wondered if the SU-100 made it into any of the books. I checked the v1 Soviet Vehicle Guide before I posted and it does not include the SU-100.

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[Matt Wiser]

Don't forget the Littlefield Armor Collection. In T2K that would be very valuable to MilGov in California, and they would "appropriate" it. Even if it means giving Mr. Littlefield a field commission as a Major or Lt. Colonel.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget the Littlefield Armor Collection. In T2K that would be very valuable to MilGov in California, and they would "appropriate" it. Even if it means giving Mr. Littlefield a field commission as a Major or Lt. Colonel.

Thanks for the reminder. We have a couple of threads here somewhere dedicated to discussion of the Littlefield Collection, and other private repositories of working AFVs.

I think the Pancerovka P-27 (a Czechoslovakian version of the RPG-2 with a larger warhead) would have been dusted off for use during the Twilight War.

http://tonnel-ufo-english.tk/weapon/...rovka-p-27.php

Of course, it's already stat'ed on Paul's Website.

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[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Raellus

...
What other older weapon systems would you expect to see brought out of retirement and encountered on the battlefield c.2000?

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Just about every US Army base I have ever been to has at least some military museum, how easy to reactivate them I do not know, I do know at Redstone when we were out in the training area one of my guys found a old M60 and was able to get it to start (did not run long or well). Also in 2003 when we were in Iraq M4A3 (76) were found (at least one that I personally laid eyes on) with spare pars and ammo (all from WWII I am guessing, so no idea what shape it was in).

[Ursus Maior]

Yugoslavian successor states and their predecessor militias pulled out M36 tank destroyers out of depots and arsenals. They were used by Croats, Slovenes and Bosnians plus Serbs, though I don't know if references to "Serbia" here mean Serbs in Bosnia or pre-dominantly Serbian units of the Yugoslavian state. Technically, Serbia only came into existence again as a separate state in 2006, when Macedonia left Yugoslavia (the only peaceful split from that state) and only Serbia remained as part of Yugoslavia, renaming the state subsequently.

The T-34 was also used by Bosnians in the Yugoslav Wars and is still in use in African nations, as well as probably in Cuba and North Korea. There were various refurbishing programs to the T-34 line after the war, including new engines, but also introducing night driving equipment, additional fuel, and other modernization. These might still have certain battlefield value late in war and certainly in 2000, when essentially every steel-plated vehicle is king, since by that time we're talking Libyan / Syrian Civil War style warfare and fuel is as much a problem as are actual vehicles.

[.45cultist]

Alabama Arsenal stores everything including vehicles. WW2 and Vietnam reenactors acting as militia are other sources.

[Olefin]

The 1st US Volunteer Mechanized Battalion is in Kenya using a variety of WWII and early Cold War equipment - i.e. Stuart and Sherman and M47 tanks, Ferrets and Greyhound AC

Mexico and Brazil were both operating Stuart tanks (the ones in Brazil were extensively upgraded - the X1A1 and the X1A2) during the timeline and there were still Greyhound Armored Cars operated by several countries if I remember right

Israel still had upgraded Sherman tanks in its inventory and African nations were still operating T-34's

Paraguay had Stuart tanks in service as late as 2014

In 2018, there were multiple countries that maintained T-34s in the inventories of their national armed forces: Cuba, Yemen, the Republic of the Congo, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Namibia, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam.

[.45cultist]

Also, there's the Cactus Air Force and it's WW2 aircraft.

[rcaf_777]

Carrier Pigeons

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I have over the last year or so gotten very addicted to auto recovery/restoration channels on Youtube. Vice Grip Garage, Thunderhead 289, Dylan McCool, and Junkyard Digs...and so many others. I'm not much of a gearhead but watching their channels now when they do a "drive it out of its grave" video, the basics that they go through, I can predict what the issue is that's stopping a given vehicle from starting and usually get it right, based on prior recoveries they've done.

The one that got me really hooked was Thunderhead, Dylan (for at least 1 episode, I think) and Junkyard recovered and got a Ford F150 truck that had been parked since 1989 or thereabouts, just sitting, not moving, on an abandoned farm. The truck itself was from the early 1970s. With about 8 hours of work, with a tool kit, some automatic transmission fluid, and a scavenged radiator, improvised radiator hose, and scavenged starter coil, they got it to drive out of its grave. It's utterly flat tires held air; they drove it a couple of miles (one up, one back) before calling it a victory. But it ran, idled, etc.

The point of all of this is that aside from the Abrams, AFVs generally use similar versions of the same engine you'll find in most heavy trucks/equipment. If a couple of guys can in the space of a day with limited tools get a vehicle moving, I would wager that a team of motivated mechanics with proper equipment could get long parked and "abandoned" AFVs working and running, no problem. Would they be factory perfect? Hell no! But, take the M113 for instance; the US has tens of thousands of them still in inventory. Their engine is the same as used in many buses and other "commercial" applications. I think the idea of "Hey can we get those M47s running again is really damn cool. It's why in my "Florida JMC" idea, the Joint Military Command has a single M60 pulled from a display in front of a VFW up in north Central Florida. Now, sure, the main gun breach is cut, but still, it's mobile armored firepower against enemies who don't have any.

Just wanted to share that.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Carrier Pigeons

Of course!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/top-t...arrier-pigeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhdJd1Nu74

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Brit

Of course!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/top-t...arrier-pigeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhdJd1Nu74

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_...gnation_System

I remember reading in the Harpoon rules that "Pigeon" had the "B" designation for Type of equipment which was later deprecated to allow use for communication security. However the coast guard used an experimental system where pigeons were trained to see orange in the water (life vests) and peck in the direction they saw it. I was always hoping they would get a letter back.

[kato13]

Drone and UAV discussion moved here
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6176

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

Drone and UAV discussion moved here
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6176

thank you Kato!

[Eukie]

Hello!

I’m working on my own 1989 Cold War Gone Hot scenario, and to mirror some Soviet army lists with T-10Ms and IS-3Ms, I’m looking for fun, weird, old stuff to pull out of storage for the other nations, including the US. This forum and this thread specifically has been very useful, mentioning for example some 50 M60A2 Starships on POMCUS circa 1990. However, I’m wondering whether anyone knows how long the M103 Heavy Tanks stick around? According to Osprey’s M103 Heavy Tank 1950-1974 they were placed in storage at Yermo Annex, Barstow California, and Albany, Georgia, but I’ve found absolutely nothing on how many or how long they were in storage and whether they could plausibly be reactivated as War Materiel Reserve for WWIII in Europe. Does anyone have more information?

Thank you for your time.

[Raellus]

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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[Eukie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Welcome, Eukie!
Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

Thanks! I was so very excited when I realised the US still had the 120 mm shells on book by 1993-1994-ish. Now to find a unit to stick them with...

In return, I offer the observation that while the M247 Sgt. York never entered official, army service, they built like 50 of them and they entered navy service as radar tracking systems (and air-to-ground targets) and many were stationed in Dixie Valley, Nevada. Several of them actually remain there to this day, since it hasn't been economical to retrieve them. The US Army still had the ammo on book circa 1993-1994, so in a Cold War Gone Hot scenario starting in 1997 (which I understand is what 1st edition Twilight: 2000 has), it's entirely possible the Sgt. York could be pressed into service.

It wasn't flawless, but by the time it was cancelled it was functional and while it couldn't keep up with Abrams and Bradley, any scenario that has the US deploy a lot of M60s and NatGuard M48s into combat could potentially have the Sgt. York make a glorious return. I like to imagine there's a Marine brigade/division that gets a Sgt. York battery operated by the Navy somewhere in WWIII.

The major problems it's going to have is a lack of spare parts, since it never entered widespread service, and the never-fixed problem of its hydraulics failing. A very annoying problem that speaks to the immaturity of the system when it was cancelled, but it'd hardly be the worst system that has entered service in the desperation of wartime.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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I've seen at least 2 M103s parked at VFW halls around Ohio before 1990. I remember having to look them up in a book, as they didn't look like exactly like M48/M60s.

[Homer]

The Patton Museum at Fort Knox had an extensive collection of AFVs, including foreign made examples either captured or purchased for testing. Some were better runners than others. They kept the overflow in motor pool lots and some sheds off of main range road and some equipment in the LST building.

Not sure what the full collection was, but there were runners of the chieftain, s-tank, leo I, bmp-1, t-55, t-34/85, m60a2, and mtlb among others. There was an m103 (plus one in Radcliff on static display), centurion, AMX-10, PT-76, centauro, and a number of one off test articles as well. The museum had various tigers, panthers, ha-go, chi-ha, and a T-72 Assad Babil. Some could crank and move onto the outdoor pads for PMCS. The only ones I’m pretty sure didn’t run were the cut away Tiger and the crushed ha-go. To throw something fun at the players they had a Mk IV.

Could be a way to introduce a unique vehicle into play. I believe that the gs maintenance unit for the armor school produced unavailable parts from stock.

[Vespers War]

The March-April 1981 issue of the Field Artillery Journal mentions in passing that turretless M103s were used as mobile targets in the HELBAT (Human Engineering Laboratory Battalion Artillery Test) tests of laser designators. No live ammo was used in those tests, so the hulls would have survived, and it shows at least some were in running condition in the late 70s or extremely early 80s. I haven't found any later references to the M103 other than museum pieces.