The Royal Army of Scotland

[dude_uk]

Great read as ever James.Its the personalities you populate your works with that make them entertaining and informative.

Doesn't referring to themselves as the 'English Government', rather than 'H.M Government' or the 'British Government' further legitimise dissident's claims? Compromising their claim to be the legitimate government of the United Kingdom? Plus the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish members of the Government, civil service and armed forces who might not appreciate this title.

Also in Scotland there are several Universities Officers Training Corps-

Aberdeen University Officers Training Corps
Edinburgh University Officers Training Corps
Glasgow University Officers Training Corps
Tayforth University Officers Training Corps

[Rainbow Six]

James, as always with your work, kudos on coming up with something that complies with the canon established in the Survivor’s Guide to the UK (particularly in this instance, where in my opinion canon raises a number of questions...).

I think main challenge is numbers though...if you go by canon the RAS is 2,000 strong but is supposed to control the whole of Scotland? The population of Scotland was in the region of the 5 million mark in 1996 (per the 1991 census) – granted a large number of those people lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh, both of which were nuclear targets but that still leaves a lot of people living in the Central Belt, so personally I’d look at upping the strength of those Militia Battalions to keep order, certainly those units based in Central Scotland. What sort of weapons and equipment do you see the Militia using?

With regard to non Scottish units, main players here are likely to be the RN base at Rosyth (if you still have it open – IRL it closed in 1996 as a result of Options). I grew up about five miles from there and it was a pretty big base in the 80’s...you also had a fair number of ex sailors living in the area, many of whom had married local girls. Just down the road from Rosyth was RAF Pitreavie Castle, which was HQ for NATO Naval forces North Atlantic and 18 Group, RAF (if you want to take Pitreavie Castle out of the equation probably easy enough to say it was plastered by conventional bombing at some point). The RAF also had Leuchars (F3 Tornado base) and the two bases on the Moray coast, Lossiemouth and Kinloss (Maritime strike and recon respectively) as well as a couple of non flying bases dotted about here and there. Army HQ in Scotland at the time was located at Craigiehall, near Kirkliston, just north of Edinburgh (it moved from Edinburgh Castle in the 50’s, although Edinburgh castle remains an active military base and in the T2k timeline would have had a working 25 pounder (it was replaced by a 105mm light gun a few years ago) that is used to fire the One o’clock gun at – oddly enough – one o’clock every day). There were three other Army bases in and around Edinburgh – Dreghorn, Glencorse, and Redford. Dreghorn and Redford may well have been destroyed when Edinburgh was nuked, but Glencorse was located about ten miles or so outside Edinburgh (to the south east) and was a recruit training base, so could well supply a ready made Battalion if it came over to the SNP in 98. I’d imagine it would also have a plentiful supply of weapons and ammo, and would give a good base to control the Borders region from.

Oh, and 45 Commando, Royal Marines were based at RM Condor at Arbroath, just up from the road from Dundee, so there might have been a handful of Marines around. So there’s a fair scope for a few scattered HMG enclaves in Scotland – I’m not sure how likely it would be that all of these bases would come over en masse.

As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m still not 100% convinced that Companies would take titles from British Army battle honours. I totally buy into the idea of attempting to tap into the great Scottish military tradition, but still think there would be an attempt by the SNP leadership to have more “Scottishness” in the titles, but that’s maybe just me...

Good job as always - hope the above is of some use.

Dave

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

James, as always with your work, kudos on coming up with something that complies with the canon established in the Survivor’s Guide to the UK (particularly in this instance, where in my opinion canon raises a number of questions...).

I think main challenge is numbers though...if you go by canon the RAS is 2,000 strong but is supposed to control the whole of Scotland? The population of Scotland was in the region of the 5 million mark in 1996 (per the 1991 census) – granted a large number of those people lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh, both of which were nuclear targets but that still leaves a lot of people living in the Central Belt, so personally I’d look at upping the strength of those Militia Battalions to keep order, certainly those units based in Central Scotland. What sort of weapons and equipment do you see the Militia using?

With regard to non Scottish units, main players here are likely to be the RN base at Rosyth (if you still have it open – IRL it closed in 1996 as a result of Options). I grew up about five miles from there and it was a pretty big base in the 80’s...you also had a fair number of ex sailors living in the area, many of whom had married local girls. Just down the road from Rosyth was RAF Pitreavie Castle, which was HQ for NATO Naval forces North Atlantic and 18 Group, RAF (if you want to take Pitreavie Castle out of the equation probably easy enough to say it was plastered by conventional bombing at some point). The RAF also had Leuchars (F3 Tornado base) and the two bases on the Moray coast, Lossiemouth and Kinloss (Maritime strike and recon respectively) as well as a couple of non flying bases dotted about here and there. Army HQ in Scotland at the time was located at Craigiehall, near Kirkliston, just north of Edinburgh (it moved from Edinburgh Castle in the 50’s, although Edinburgh castle remains an active military base and in the T2k timeline would have had a working 25 pounder (it was replaced by a 105mm light gun a few years ago) that is used to fire the One o’clock gun at – oddly enough – one o’clock every day). There were three other Army bases in and around Edinburgh – Dreghorn, Glencorse, and Redford. Dreghorn and Redford may well have been destroyed when Edinburgh was nuked, but Glencorse was located about ten miles or so outside Edinburgh (to the south east) and was a recruit training base, so could well supply a ready made Battalion if it came over to the SNP in 98. I’d imagine it would also have a plentiful supply of weapons and ammo, and would give a good base to control the Borders region from.

Oh, and 45 Commando, Royal Marines were based at RM Condor at Arbroath, just up from the road from Dundee, so there might have been a handful of Marines around. So there’s a fair scope for a few scattered HMG enclaves in Scotland – I’m not sure how likely it would be that all of these bases would come over en masse.

As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m still not 100% convinced that Companies would take titles from British Army battle honours. I totally buy into the idea of attempting to tap into the great Scottish military tradition, but still think there would be an attempt by the SNP leadership to have more “Scottishness” in the titles, but that’s maybe just me...

Good job as always - hope the above is of some use.

Dave

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

Bear in mind the RAS does not have large numbers to oppose it, the marauder groups are actually quite small and untrained. I will probably expand the militia from the 2001 level. Militia will be armed with a real mix, at best SLRs, often .303s and some shotguns. Ammunition will be in short supply. Uniform will be armband at the start, probably with self-bought military surplus kit. Numbers may well be limited by availability of weapons though.

RN - I will probably add a note putting many in the Engineering Rgt or the Amphibious Squadron. Most of the RAF will probably gravitate to the RAF Rgt or the Engineering Rgt. The conventional bombing raid could make a good short article in that it's own right. The RM will probably gravitate to the Rapid Action Force.

I may have one base refuse and a firefight break out.

I considered as many options as I could for the names, individuals didn't feel right as it is the regiments that tend to have the glory. Any names you can suggest are welcome. If you have a better option please let me know.

Really useful comments, thank you.

[Canadian Army]

I like the "The Mystery Of Loch Feinn" reference.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

No problem. I appreciate that whilst I'm still discussing the RAS I may be drifting away from the intent of your thread, which was to expand on what is in canon...whereas I may be looking at more from the perspective of the flaws in that canon material...as a Scot I can't help but look at it and wonder how realistic some of it is...for example I have doubts about how many RAF / RN personnel will want to throw their lot in with an independent Scotland given that majority of them are going to be English. There probably wont be enough Marines left at Condor to resist if the RAS attacks in strength, but I'm not so sure about the Navy and RAF bases - at best I think some of them would remain neutral, at worst they are going to stay loyal to the Crown. It's probably possible RAS forces could "beseige" them and effectively starve them out, but that's going to take time and manpower. And if the RAF have enough fuel to get a Tornado airborne that could cause the RAS a World of hurt...so apologies if I'm derailing the thread slightly...

That said...looking at it from the point of view of how to expand on canon...

Originally Posted by James Langham

Bear in mind the RAS does not have large numbers to oppose it, the marauder groups are actually quite small and untrained. I will probably expand the militia from the 2001 level. Militia will be armed with a real mix, at best SLRs, often .303s and some shotguns. Ammunition will be in short supply. Uniform will be armband at the start, probably with self-bought military surplus kit. Numbers may well be limited by availability of weapons though.

Fair enough, but there could still be a fair amount of law enforcement to be done...there are a few towns in central Scotland that have areas that are "dodgy" (to put it politely)...there's likely to be a fair amount of friction in some of these places with local strongmen trying to seize power, that sort of thing. That's where I think the manpower quoted in canon is somehwat optimistic to control all of Scotland. What I'd be inclined to do is have the standing force 2000 strong and have another 2,000 (or so) serving as part time Militia. Assuming the sailors come over, control of the Navy base at Rosyth would give a firm grip of the southern half of Fife (and dependent on how much damage you want to inflict may give the Scots control of a dock large enough for an Illustrious Class aircraft carrier or a big ferry (IRL a RO / RO ferry sailed between Rosyth and Zeebrugge for a number of years, whilst cruise liners have also called in). From Kinloss and Lossiemouth you'd have a great base to secure the Highlands (there's also an Army base at Fort George, which is only about ten miles from Inverness - chances are an HSF Company would be based there from whichever of the 51st Highland Battalions affiliated to the Queen's Own Highlanders). Leuchars is in northern Fife, so with Leuchars and Rosyth under control you've probably got Fife. I discussed Glencorse in my last post - with a Battalion in there you're in good shape to control the eastern Borders (and protect against incursions from England). Put at least one Battalion in Stirling and you can reach into the Central Belt (which was home to a lot of hi tech manufacturing sites for companies like Motorola, NEC, and IBM). I think you'd need a Battalion in South West Scotland as well, maybe in somewhere like Dumfries, to control the region and guard against anyone coming into the area from northwest England - you wouldn't want some marauder horde working their way north from what's left of Greater Manchester / Lancs.

Originally Posted by James Langham

RN - I will probably add a note putting many in the Engineering Rgt or the Amphibious Squadron. Most of the RAF will probably gravitate to the RAF Rgt or the Engineering Rgt. The conventional bombing raid could make a good short article in that it's own right. The RM will probably gravitate to the Rapid Action Force.

I may have one base refuse and a firefight break out.

This thread has reminded me that I still have some work to do on my own (non canon) Separatist piece...I intend to have a small number of Condor Marines running around causing general mischief...

Originally Posted by James Langham

I considered as many options as I could for the names, individuals didn't feel right as it is the regiments that tend to have the glory. Any names you can suggest are welcome. If you have a better option please let me know.

Really useful comments, thank you.

I have been racking my brains trying to think of suitable names other than those that you already have such as Bannockburn, Flodden, etc and to be honest I can't think of any. I'm sure if I googled Jacobite Battles or someething similar I could come up with some, but that obviously wouldn't be an option in post apoc Scotland circa Feb 1998, so didn't go down that road.

What I would suggest is trying to tie the Battalions in with their traditional recruiting areas. For example, the Gordon Highlanders recruited from Aberdeen and Angus, the Black Watch recruited from Fife, Perth, and Tayside, etc, so I'd suggest something along the lines of 1st Battalion (Black Watch), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering the Black Watch recruiting area, 2nd Battalion (Royal Scots), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering Edinburgh and the Lothians, etc, etc. That way you're taping into the Regimental names (as you say, it's the Regiment that gets the glory). You could follow the British Army order of precedence if you wished, which would make the Royal Scots first in line. But for Companies, I'm stuck with straightforward 1 Company, 2 Company, etc, etc. Or maybe place names, e.g. 1 (Fife) Company, 2 (Perthshire) Company, etc.

Cheers

[simonmark6]

There are several inconsistencies in the UK Survivor's book that are very difficult to reconcile.

The one that gets me is the break down of the population: it says the prewar population was 56 million with 80% English, 9% Scottish, 4% Irish and 2% Welsh with about 5% being of other origins. It then goes on to say that in the post war UK about 25% of people speak Welsh. That either means that casualties in the rest of the UK were about 90%+ with very few Welsh speakers dying, or Plaid Cymru have been involved in a massive re-education policy that has spread the Welsh language well beyond its borders. Or, the writers screwed up their Maths.

In 1996 there were about 700,000 Welsh speakers, if that's 25% of the UK's 2001 population, the UK is rally screwed, down to what, about 2.8 million?

[Canadian Army]

Here are few regiment suggestions:

Infantry:

The Royal Scots
The Royal Scots Fusiliers
The King's Own Scottish Borderers
The Scottish Regiment of Foot Guards
The Cameronian Regiment

Cavalry:

Royal Regiment of Scots Dragoons
4th Troop of Horse Guards

Militia:

Lonach Highlanders
Atholl Highlanders
Manus O'Cahan's Regiment of Foot
Royal Company of Archers
Lovat Scouts
Glasgow Highlanders
Highland Light Infantry

French Advisors:

Garde Écossaise

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

French Advisors:

Garde Écossaise

I like the sound of Français Expéditionnaire Groupe Écosse (which I think is French Expeditionary Group, Scotland).

I don't think the canon material specifically states one way or the other whether there are any French advisors active in Scotland though.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

...then goes on to say that in the post war UK about 25% of people speak Welsh.

My guess is there is a decimal point that needs shifting one place. Should work at 2.5%.
Just a typo - they happen....

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My guess is there is a decimal point that needs shifting one place. Should work at 2.5%.
Just a typo - they happen....

Either that or the Welsh National Voluntary Army is about to overrun England and the English are making preparations to be able to communicate with their new Welsh Overlords.

Cymru Am Byth...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

What I would suggest is trying to tie the Battalions in with their traditional recruiting areas. For example, the Gordon Highlanders recruited from Aberdeen and Angus, the Black Watch recruited from Fife, Perth, and Tayside, etc, so I'd suggest something along the lines of 1st Battalion (Black Watch), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering the Black Watch recruiting area, 2nd Battalion (Royal Scots), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering Edinburgh and the Lothians, etc, etc. That way you're taping into the Regimental names (as you say, it's the Regiment that gets the glory). You could follow the British Army order of precedence if you wished, which would make the Royal Scots first in line. But for Companies, I'm stuck with straightforward 1 Company, 2 Company, etc, etc. Or maybe place names, e.g. 1 (Fife) Company, 2 (Perthshire) Company, etc.

Cheers

Elaborating slightly on my earlier suggestion...

The Scottish Horse (Armoured)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Deployed in support of other Battalions as necessary
AFV’s: 4 Chieftain MBT’s, 5 Scorpion CVR(T)’s

Rapid Action Force
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Deployed in support of other Battalions as necessary

1st Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Royal Scots)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Central Scotland

Formed from elements of the 2nd Battalion, 52nd Lowland Volunteers (TA).

2nd Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Royal Highland Fusiliers)
HQ: Dumfries
Area of Operations: Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway

3rd Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (King’s Own Scottish Borderers)
HQ Glencorse Barracks, Penicuik.
Area of Operations: Lothian and Borders

Formed from elements of the 2nd Battalion, 52nd Lowland Volunteers (TA). Includes a large number of recruits who were undergoing basic training at Glencorse at the time of the nuclear strikes

4th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Black Watch)
HQ: RAF Leuchars
Area of Operations: Fife, Perthshire

5th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Highlanders)
HQ: Fort George, Inverness
Area of Operations: Highlands

6th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Central Scotland

Formed from elements of the 3rd Battalion, 51st Highland Volunteers (TA)

1st Support Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland
HQ Stirling Castle
Includes elements of the RLC and REME. Heavily augmented by civilian volunteers

This does set up a scenario where the British and Scottish Armies are both fielding similarly named formations.

I'd personally be inclined to have Rosyth subjected to such heavy conventional bombing that the RN have pulled out completely. (I seem to recall having read somewhere a theory that HMG pull all forces out of Scotland at some point in time, thus removing the RAF and RN from the equation. I can't find a reference to it in the SGUK, so think it may have been on the etranger site somewhere. It does seem to be to be a more likely option than having large numbers of English airmen and sailors joining a Separatist Scottish Army).

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Great read as ever James.Its the personalities you populate your works with that make them entertaining and informative.

Doesn't referring to themselves as the 'English Government', rather than 'H.M Government' or the 'British Government' further legitimise dissident's claims? Compromising their claim to be the legitimate government of the United Kingdom? Plus the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish members of the Government, civil service and armed forces who might not appreciate this title.

Also in Scotland there are several Universities Officers Training Corps-

Aberdeen University Officers Training Corps
Edinburgh University Officers Training Corps
Glasgow University Officers Training Corps
Tayforth University Officers Training Corps

I used the term English Government in the same sense of the Survivor's Guide, in reality they would retain the term H. M. Government (being Welsh I agree wholeheartedly with you!).

My belief is that the OTC will have been mobilized in 1997 to provide for replacement infantry subaltans traditionally the highest casualty group in the army).

Glad you like it, it will be expanded at some point (as will the MBT article, I'm just away on a course and don't have all my reference material to do that).