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Old 05-17-2021, 02:37 AM
Enfield Enfield is offline
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Default Army and Corps Commands

Based on sourcebooks like the US Army Vehicle Sourcebook, we have organizations like:

9th US Army, 8th US Corps, 6th US Army, still appear to be active according to Howling Wilderness as well.

I'm curious about what they'd be doing. I imagine them having a headquarters somewhere, perhaps issuing orders to units that no longer exist. Or would they be attached to an operational division?
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Old 05-17-2021, 10:51 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
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They should be issuing orders to units that still exist, or working hard to make sure they stay that way! Someone needs to be looking at the bigger picture, above the division commanders, after all.
For instance, the US Sixth Army in 2000 seems to be the controlling HQ for the California side of the Mexican front, while Fifth Army covers the Texas-Oklahoma side. Both of those should be seeking supplies in their rear areas and funneling them to the front forces.
Given the breakdowns in communications, those generals and their staffs should be talking to governors and mayors, and they are effectively representing MilGov to those authorities. Where can they help, how can they obtain stuff?

The way I see things, when the cantonment system arose, Army and Corps HQs would be coordinating things among their subordinate formations. Most of the Cold War corps should have some rear-area defense/theater-defense brigades assigned in addition to their small MP units, so those would be patrolling roads and escorting convoys.
Engineer brigades are assigned to corps and armies, so those would be working at defenses and roads.
Most heavy artillery is at the corps level when the war starts, those might be moved into central firebases and used to cover the front lines.
Signal brigades may have developed pigeon and courier-rider systems, too.

IMC, I think that grounded air force units would be: a) cannibalized for personnel to fill up Army units, and b) reorganized into more road-security and farm-security units in the rear areas. These would be controlled by the corps and/or army HQs.

My understanding of the US Army, at least, is that Corps HQs were meant to stay out of logistical measures as much as possible (not exclusively), focusing on tactical concerns, while Army HQs were the other way around. Other armies probably do it differently?

Where Corps and Army HQs are is something I've devoted (wasted?) too much time on, after all.
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Old 05-17-2021, 01:15 PM
mpipes mpipes is offline
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One of the things I was slightly miffed about in the books - NO equipment, organization, or equipment lists for higher HQs. There are considerable combat forces falling directly under Army or Corps control like artillery brigades, SAMs, combat engineers, helicopter units, recon elements, and even combat units - like Guard Tank Brigades or elite breakthrough or Special Forces formations.
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Old 05-17-2021, 01:35 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
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@ADM Lee:

Interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, the Army and Corps commands have to have good contacts within the regions in which their subordinate units are operating.

So for example, the force in the continental USA that is most effective appears to be the 5th US Army, with two corps intact though considerably reduced in strength, controlling the Mississippi from southern Illinois to Louisiana. According to what you're saying, they have been effective in having good relations with the communities along that stretch. Possibly a good example of this would be in Airlords of the Ozarks where, at considerable risk, one of those Corps deploys divisions to deal with the New American cell there that is raiding and conquering various communities.

The reason I'm posing this question is to get deeper into how the conflict between Milgov's forces and the New American cell in Idaho as well as Cascadia works, as well as how effective Cascadia and New America are as opponents for them.

I'm also trying to figure out where to place corps and army HQs.

There remain:

5th US Army
- 90th US Corps
- 122nd US Corps

6th US Army
-63rd Corps

9th US Army
- 8th US Corps

Had you imagined some idea of where their headquarters would be?
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Old 05-18-2021, 10:12 AM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield View Post
@ADM Lee:

Interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, the Army and Corps commands have to have good contacts within the regions in which their subordinate units are operating.

So for example, the force in the continental USA that is most effective appears to be the 5th US Army, with two corps intact though considerably reduced in strength, controlling the Mississippi from southern Illinois to Louisiana. According to what you're saying, they have been effective in having good relations with the communities along that stretch. Possibly a good example of this would be in Airlords of the Ozarks where, at considerable risk, one of those Corps deploys divisions to deal with the New American cell there that is raiding and conquering various communities.

The reason I'm posing this question is to get deeper into how the conflict between Milgov's forces and the New American cell in Idaho as well as Cascadia works, as well as how effective Cascadia and New America are as opponents for them.

I'm also trying to figure out where to place corps and army HQs.

There remain:

5th US Army -
- 90th US Corps -
- 122nd US Corps -

6th US Army -
-63rd Corps -

9th US Army -
- 8th US Corps -
Had you imagined some idea of where their headquarters would be?
I feel the Army HQs would be much further away from the main action than Corps HQs would be. Armies are more of a Regional thing while Corps are fluid. This is my feelings on this.

5th US Army - Fort Chaffee, AR
- 90th US Corps -Fort Sill, OK
- 122nd US Corps - Minden, LA

6th US Army -McClellan AFB or Presidio
-63rd Corps -Fort Hunter Liggett
-89th Corps - Fresno, CA

9th US Army -Fort Lewis, Wa or Fort Wainwright, AK
- 8th US Corps -Fort Lawton or Bellingham, WA
- 10th US Corps - Fort Wainwright



Quote:
Originally Posted by mpipes View Post
One of the things I was slightly miffed about in the books - NO equipment, organization, or equipment lists for higher HQs. There are considerable combat forces falling directly under Army or Corps control like artillery brigades, SAMs, combat engineers, helicopter units, recon elements, and even combat units - like Guard Tank Brigades or elite breakthrough or Special Forces formations.
I started addressing some of this in my own personal orbat. The orbat is a work in progress although I havent updated it in a couple of years. The timeline is modified and doesnt take into account the newer sourcebooks. My feelings were corps formed later in the timeline would have less and less support units. For example V Corps aviation brigade had 2 aviation groups with 3-4 battalions a piece. While LXIII Corps is lucky to have a Corps Aviation Battalion imo.
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Old 05-18-2021, 12:38 PM
mpipes mpipes is offline
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I would love to see an update.
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Old 05-18-2021, 12:44 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
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.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield View Post
@ADM Lee:

Interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, the Army and Corps commands have to have good contacts within the regions in which their subordinate units are operating.
They'd better, anyway. I can't speak to how effective they have been, nor how effective they will be-- that's kind of on the GM, isn't it?

Quote:
So for example, the force in the continental USA that is most effective appears to be the 5th US Army, with two corps intact though considerably reduced in strength, controlling the Mississippi from southern Illinois to Louisiana. According to what you're saying, they have been effective in having good relations with the communities along that stretch.
I think they've been reasonably effective, though things are probably still crumbling a bit over 2000-01. Yes, I agree that the Mississippi River has probably become the logistical centerpiece for Fifth US Army. Given that road & rail transport is crippled, river and coastal transport may be big again. I suspect there are small river-transport units that have been formed by that army.

Quote:
Possibly a good example of this would be in Airlords of the Ozarks where, at considerable risk, one of those Corps deploys divisions to deal with the New American cell there that is raiding and conquering various communities.
I don't recall a division being deployed for that, but it's been a long time since I've read that one. I do recall that there is a part of the adventure covering an NA cell inside the Arkansas state government, and that would certainly be a concern. Any division moving to deal with the NA in the Ozarks would have to deal with that cell, once it made itself known. More likely, it would show up as passive obstruction of such a move.

I do remember that Memphis is the jumping-off point for the adventure, and that two US heavy brigades are in the area-- one at Memphis and one at Cairo, I think? The presence of those brigades does seem to reinforce the idea that the Army will be protecting its lines of communication along the river.


Quote:
The reason I'm posing this question is to get deeper into how the conflict between Milgov's forces and the New American cell in Idaho as well as Cascadia works, as well as how effective Cascadia and New America are as opponents for them.
I still haven't read the PNW book in detail, so I got nothing here.

Quote:
I'm also trying to figure out where to place corps and army HQs.

There remain:

5th US Army
- 90th US Corps
- 122nd US Corps

6th US Army
-63rd Corps

9th US Army
- 8th US Corps

Had you imagined some idea of where their headquarters would be?
I'd put them on major roads (or river links) to their divisions, which more or less means in or near cities, rather than pre-war Army posts.

Now that I think of it, those prewar posts would probably be best used as training and hospital/rest facilities, with (at least some) Armies setting up their own Basic and refresher training units?

Anyway, I'm looking at US Army Vehicle Guide for summer, 2000 positions, and an old National Geographic map.
Fifth Army
194 AB- Cairo, IL-- covering river transport
197 MB- Memphis, TN-- covering river transport

90th Corps (I can't stand that they broke with the normal Roman-numerals for Corps, much less that the writers skipped so many numbers! This is
VI Corps, IMTU)
49 AD- Oklahoma
95 ID- Oklahoma
Since both of these are in Oklahoma, having retreated from NE Texas, I'm guessing they are using the Red River as a front line. Fort Sill isn't too far to the rear, so that may be a rear-base for one of these divisions. Oklahoma City, and/or Tulsa, seems like a good rear-area spot for logistical collection, anyway. The corps HQ itself could be in any of those spots.

122nd Corps (again, yuck. II Corps for me)
1/85th IB- reformed at Camp Beauregard, LA (kinda near Alexandria, right in the middle of the state)
2/98th IB- Louisiana- could be north of the 85th, since it entered Texas from Oklahoma. Let's say around Shreveport?
Since we're now talking about river traffic being a big thing, and both of these are also on the same Red River as X Corps, I'm going to guess the Corps forward HQ is with the 85th at Camp Beauregard, and rear elements (local militia?) are at Baton Rouge and Vicksburg and New Orleans.

So, looking at those, I'd put Fifth Army HQ somewhere equidistant to its Corps HQs, and on or near the big river. Vicksburg or Memphis?
BTW, I think after Omega, some of the European veterans will be allocated to Fifth Army, and routed via the mouth of the Mississippi, to start a campaign up that way. I'd relocate some of the Army HQ to be closer to directing this operation, so it could move south, leaving its garrisons in place.

Sixth Army is covering the California front.
The descriptions of location of the 5 brigades is pretty vague, but Camp Roberts is named. I'd guess one corps is covering the coastal routes, and the other the San Joaquin Valley? Army rear services may be back in the Bay Area (Fort Ord near Monterey makes sense?) The Corps HQs may be somewhere along Routes 101 and I-5?
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Last edited by Adm.Lee; 05-18-2021 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 05-18-2021, 03:40 PM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Might as well explain this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike6 View Post

5th US Army - Fort Chaffee, AR - Airlords of the Ozarks says there is a significant Milgov presence in the Fort Smith area. Considering that its reserve bdes are to the east. the 122nd is to the south. 90th is to the west and sw. Seems as logical a place as any.
- 90th US Corps -Fort Sill, OK Keeps it close to the 49th AD and the front. Existing infrastructure and on an interstate hwy.
- 122nd US Corps - Minden, LA - Considering significant portions of LA are nuked such as Shreveport and Baton Rouge. Minden made sense since it contains the Louisiana Army Ammunition Plant. While transportation is important so is industry.

6th US Army -McClellan AFB or Presidio I either thought the HQ stayed in place at the Presidio or moved because of the Nuke strikes in the Bay Area
-63rd Corps -Fort Hunter Liggett could just as well be Camp Roberts doesnt really matter
-89th Corps - Fresno, CA Why not?

9th US Army -Fort Lewis, Wa or Fort Wainwright, AK - depends on where it was activated. If it was activated in AK then it probably activated at Fort Richardson and evacuated north during the invasion. If it was activated at Fort Lewis then it probably stayed there and never had a reason to move.
- 8th US Corps -Fort Lawton or Bellingham, WA - somewhere close to Canada anyway along with units of the 47th ID.
- 10th US Corps - Fort Wainwright AK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
.


90th Corps (I can't stand that they broke with the normal Roman-numerals for Corps, much less that the writers skipped so many numbers! This is
VI Corps, IMTU)

122nd Corps (again, yuck. II Corps for me)
Its because they used ARCOMs to form the Corps. 90th Corps was formed from the ex 90th ARCOM (ex 90th ID) and was the ARCOM for TX and NM. 122nd Corps from ex 122nd ARCOM which was for OK, AR and LA. 63rd Corps formed from 63rd ARCOM (ex 63d ID) covered Southern CA. 89th Corps (ex 89th ARCOM, ex 89th ID) covered Kansas, Nebraska and Missouri.) is a little bit out of place but whatever.

Last edited by shrike6; 05-18-2021 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Added color
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Old 05-18-2021, 09:47 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike6 View Post
Might as well explain this.




Its because they used ARCOMs to form the Corps. 90th Corps was formed from the ex 90th ARCOM (ex 90th ID) and was the ARCOM for TX and NM. 122nd Corps from ex 122nd ARCOM which was for OK, AR and LA. 63rd Corps formed from 63rd ARCOM (ex 63d ID) covered Southern CA. 89th Corps (ex 89th ARCOM, ex 89th ID) covered Kansas, Nebraska and Missouri.) is a little bit out of place but whatever.
This. The 99th ARCOM (out of Oakdale near the Pittsburgh airport) would be the Army command in Allegheny Uprising.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:51 AM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
This. The 99th ARCOM (out of Oakdale near the Pittsburgh airport) would be the Army command in Allegheny Uprising.
Yes, its a possibility.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:19 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike6 View Post
Its because they used ARCOMs to form the Corps. 90th Corps was formed from the ex 90th ARCOM (ex 90th ID) and was the ARCOM for TX and NM. 122nd Corps from ex 122nd ARCOM which was for OK, AR and LA. 63rd Corps formed from 63rd ARCOM (ex 63d ID) covered Southern CA. 89th Corps (ex 89th ARCOM, ex 89th ID) covered Kansas, Nebraska and Missouri.) is a little bit out of place but whatever.
AH! Now it is clear.

Still ugly, but clear.

Consider, also, that larger formations often have forward and rear HQs, the latter for the large logistical tails (even less mobile in T2k), and the former able to move about a bit more.
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Old 05-20-2021, 10:35 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike6 View Post
I feel the Army HQs would be much further away from the main action than Corps HQs would be. Armies are more of a Regional thing while Corps are fluid. This is my feelings on this.

5th US Army - Fort Chaffee, AR
- 90th US Corps -Fort Sill, OK
- 122nd US Corps - Minden, LA

6th US Army -McClellan AFB or Presidio
-63rd Corps -Fort Hunter Liggett
-89th Corps - Fresno, CA

9th US Army -Fort Lewis, Wa or Fort Wainwright, AK
- 8th US Corps -Fort Lawton or Bellingham, WA
- 10th US Corps - Fort Wainwright





I started addressing some of this in my own personal orbat. The orbat is a work in progress although I havent updated it in a couple of years. The timeline is modified and doesnt take into account the newer sourcebooks. My feelings were corps formed later in the timeline would have less and less support units. For example V Corps aviation brigade had 2 aviation groups with 3-4 battalions a piece. While LXIII Corps is lucky to have a Corps Aviation Battalion imo.
Thank you for posting this, I wasn't aware of your own orbat, so I'll take a look.

At a glance, you seem to have a very different vision for how the Howling Wilderness/Pacific Northwest sourcebooks suggest.
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