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  #31  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:55 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
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The tension in the Middle East is now going off on an arc all of its own.

Since Trump pulled US forces from Syria the Turkish invasion of Northern Syria is underway with widespread attacks on the pro-American Kurds. There is also a real danger that ISIS prisoners in jails guarded by the Kurds could be set free, in fact some have already escaped.

Russia has moved its forces into some of the areas evacuated by US forces and the Russian Army is now are acting as a buffer or peacekeeper between Turkish and Syrian forces.

Turkey is member of NATO and is invading another country were American and Russian military forces are based. The Turks even launched an artillery barrage at some US forces still in Syria!

The most worrying aspect of all this is the fact that 50 B61 nuclear bombs stored at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey are now effectively hostages of the whims of the Turkish President. Turkey is also talking about developing its own nuclear forces.

........And Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel are not even directly involved.
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  #32  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:03 PM
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Read elsewhere. Haven't had time to verify it, but sounds plausible, even likely.
Quote:
"Some points on the Turkish invasion of Syria against the Kurds

A plethora of inconvenient details...
1) both NATO and the UN knew of Turkey’s plans to use its military against the Kurds.

2)the Kurds belong to the PKK (in turkey) and the YPG, the PKK Branch in Syria.

3)the PKK and YPG are communists

4) the PKK is marked as a terrorist organization by the US and internationally.

5)the PKK and YPG have been at war with Turkey since 1978

6)the UN and NATO approved turkeys plan to attack the PKK and YPG... back in September! Which means that this has been in the works for some time and the “World Government” has known about it for quite some time.

7)the US has binding Treaty obligations to Turkey

8)we only had 1000 troops in Kurdish YPG held Syria and had they defended against Turkey, who had NATO and US blessings, we would have been in violation of the NATO treaty

9) NATO, by its obligations to Turkey under nato treat membership rules, would have been obligated to eject the US from NATO and declare it an enemy state and then militarily support turkey (that means nato would have supported turkey logistically and militarily attack US forces.

10) it was Obama and HRClinton who set up this half assed alliance with Kurdish Communist terrorists because their original plan backfired.

11)the original plan involved the Benghazi disaster where HRC and Obama, after illegally overthrowing Ghaddafi, raised Libyan armories and shipped them, via the CIA, to Turkey (run by erdogan, a radical Islamist) who then gave the weapons (and official US comma and medical supplies) to Daesh(aka Islamic State/IS) radical terrorists to overthrow Assad (who crossed obamas red line).

12)Daesh/IS are also
Likely the ones who used wmd to kill Christians in Syria that got blamed on Assad

13)Turkey supported Daesh

14)Turkey has been buying Russian weapons systems and threatening US forces for years and violating nato rules and the Obama admin never countered it... until they made a deal with the Kurdish PKK/YPG to counter the mistakes they made arming Islamic radicals with Libyan weapons under H Clinton’s and Obama’s pro “Arab Spring” policies.

15)Europe/the EU/UK/France have all known, via Nato and the UN, that Turkey was going to make this military move for over a month... and approved it.

16)no other EU country, nor NATO itself, would assist the US in defending the Kurds.

17) no other country would take, after repeated requests by Trump and the US, the terrorist prisoners being held in YPG Kurdish Territory, nor would they deploy troops to takeover the prisons.

18)Erdogan/Turkey has been threatening to release 3.6 MILLION Syrian refugees into Europe unless he got his way... and they let him have his way but all are now criticizing trump for pulling our Sons and Daughters in the US military out of harms way. A harm they won’t stop, won’t send their own into stop and a harm they approved!

Now, anyone here wanna tell me how the hell Trump was supposed to violate Nato Treaty obligations or let 1000 American lives get killed as an OFFICIAL NATO ALLIE WITH NATO APPROVAL ATTACKED A KNOWN AND DESIGNATED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION LAUNCHING ATTACKS ACROSS THEIR COUNTRY FOR THE LAST 41 YEARS???

And while you’re at it, please explain how an Obama/Clinton/Globalist policy disaster is somehow Trumps fault?

When and why the hell did we start working with Communist Rebels and then feel obligated to defend them?

How the hell is this Trumps fault?"
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  #33  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Read elsewhere. Haven't had time to verify it, but sounds plausible, even likely.
I don't know if the UN, NATO or anyone else outside of Trump's inner circle knew about this in advance but Trump seems to be back stepping a bit and making some serious threats to destabilise the Turkish economy. If the US knew that Turkey was going to invade Syria in advance would they not have moved the 50 nuclear weapons they have in Turkey elsewhere. Also the Europeans are not acting like they knew about it in advance. France and the UK are threatening sanctions and the British government may send the SAS Regiment into Syria to capture or kill ISIS fighters who escape from the jails.
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  #34  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:00 AM
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The entire world has known for years Turkey was going to step over the border into Syria. They've got previous form in doing just that!
This whole messy situation is the result of a lot of political decisions going back decades.
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  #35  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:00 AM
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The problem is not that it was done, but how it was done.

The USA had the balance of power before its pullout. The simple fact was the USA could determine just how the Kurds were situated vis a vis Syria.

Instead of engaging with Syria and negotiating a status agreement of the Rojava area the US simply pulled out quickly giving their allies no time to prepare.

No one should be stupid enough to believe that the USA should have stayed in Syria, for one thing the presence of any non-ally of the Syrian government in Syria is illegal by any viewing of international law.
However the fact was the USA *was* there and *did* let the Syrian Kurds take 11,000 casualties - 13% of their total fighting force - fighting ISIS when the Kurds could have otherwise sat that war out.
It's at this point we ask ourselves: "what sort of ally are we?"
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  #36  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:00 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
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I'm more in agreement with ChalkLine: the US could not stay in Syria or back the Kurds there forever, but whipping those advisors out without any notice (even to the DoD or the troops involved) was a particularly shitty thing to do.

As for the Turkish offensive being "long-planned" and "okayed in advance", I think there's a difference between understanding that this is something Turkey has long contemplated, and specifically signing off on something. The bluster about sanctions, with signals of European agreement, would seem to indicate that it wasn't agreed all around, as does the presence of American advisors even after the attack started.
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  #37  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
The entire world has known for years Turkey was going to step over the border into Syria. They've got previous form in doing just that!
This whole messy situation is the result of a lot of political decisions going back decades.
Some may have suspected that Erdogan would do something like this but I don't think anyone knew he was going to do it. Certainly the US troops on the ground in Syria and the brass back in the Pentagon seem to have been as surprised as everyone else. Erdogan is a dictator and he is turning Turkey into a rogue state. Turkey needs to be kicked out of NATO and sanctioned by America and the EU. Turkey does not have vast oil reserves or does it have or make anything much of value, and its economy and military will wither under sanctions.
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  #38  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
Erdogan is a dictator and he is turning Turkey into a rogue state. Turkey needs to be kicked out of NATO and sanctioned by America and the EU. Turkey does not have vast oil reserves or does it have or make anything much of value, and its economy and military will wither under sanctions.
Totally agree with you there. The "military coup" of a few years ago seemed too convenient to my liking - all it did was cement Erdogan in power. I (and others I've spoken to) strongly believe it was a con job specifically designed to give him and his cronies even more power and eliminate any domestic political opposition.
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  #39  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Totally agree with you there. The "military coup" of a few years ago seemed too convenient to my liking - all it did was cement Erdogan in power. I (and others I've spoken to) strongly believe it was a con job specifically designed to give him and his cronies even more power and eliminate any domestic political opposition.
It could have been as it was a particularly weak coup. It also gave Erdogan the excuse to fire a lot of Turkish military officers and thousands of civil servants who were opposed to him. Also the West has had growing misgivings about Erdogan's motives for sometimes. In July Turkey was kicked off the F-35 stealth fighter programme after buying Russian S-400 SAM systems, as a Russian intelligence platform based close to an F-35 could compromise the technology of the F-35.

Erdogan has built up Turkey's defence industry and they produce a lot of their own weapons, and Erdogan probably thinks he can ride out any threat of sanctions. But Western sanctioning could really hurt the Turkish military. The Turks license produced or buy directly from Western countries. Its army uses the Korean designed Altay tank and German Leopard 2 and a lot of other German and American equipment, while their Air Force combat aircraft are all American.

Financial sanctions will also seriously hurt a weak economy like Turkey. A full US and EU sanction will basically destroy their economy and Erdogan and his allies cannot use or trade in US Dollars or have any transactions with US financial institutions which is devastating. The big British, German, Swiss and Japanese banks also nearly always support a US government financial sanction.
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  #40  
Old 10-16-2019, 05:27 PM
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one thing about the YPG and PPK. they are not KRG or KPD or PUK. the last are the Kurds that fought ISIS and help the Yezidi. the YPG and PPK were Russian backed, and like to blow up busses and the like to destabilized a NATO member.
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  #41  
Old 10-17-2019, 12:09 AM
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This may shed a little light on what's going on.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...CI1GqT87I_7mRe
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  #42  
Old 10-17-2019, 07:51 AM
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Turks vs Syrians - lots of dead Syrian Army members, not many Turks - one army is fully armed, ready to go and fresh the other is worn out, low on ammo and equipment and not really ready to die even more for Assad just to keep some Turkish border towns
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  #43  
Old 10-17-2019, 05:02 PM
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Yes, it's clearly Turkish opportunism and aggression. They need to be dealt with harshly, and the measures currently being put into place will likely do just that without risking western lives.
Of course it's come to this because of certain parties meddling in the region over the last decade or two. Without that destabilisation we probably wouldn't have had the Syrian civil war, the hordes of refugees (both real and "economic migrants/opportunists), the troubles Europe is experiencing (including, but certainly not limited to the yellow vest protests in France), Brexit (possibly), and a host of other issues effecting not only the two countries involved, not even the region, but the entire continent and beyond.
Just goes to show that small(ish) actions in one place can have massive impact elsewhere - aka the butterfly effect.
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