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  #31  
Old 08-22-2020, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rcaf_777 View Post
I been thinking you make some good fortications using

Barrells (Plastic or metal) filled with sand, dirt or small stone
Landscaping Stone
Large Logs
ammo can filled with sand or dirt or pack snow with a little water added
In "normal" conditions I'd agree filled barrels, ammo canisters, or other durable containers would make good makeshift fortifications. I think those make a lot less sense in the Twilight War (after TDM) because durable containers would cease to be commodities.

A 55 gal drum would be better used storing day's worth of water for a platoon, the methanol to keep vehicles moving, or components of stills or water filters than static fortifications. Of course rusted out or shot up barrels you'd use for gabions but you wouldn't waste any in good condition.
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  #32  
Old 08-22-2020, 06:21 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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Another existing fort that could be of use in a campaign involved in the Gulf of Mexico (whether that follow on from Spanish Main, Urban Guerilla, or Red Star) is Fort Jefferson. The third-largest fort in the United States, it takes up 70% of the land area of Garden Key, Dry Tortugas, about 70 miles west of Key West. The fort's parade ground is 13 acres, surrounded by six brick-and-concrete walls that are eight feet thick and forty-five feet high. It's large enough to house 2,000 people and 450 cannon, and contains around 16 million bricks.

The fort was built for its strategic location and harbor. The inner harbor was deep enough for line-of-battle ships, but its entrance was only 120 yards across. The island already had a lighthouse, which the fort was built around (it was later torn down and another lighthouse built). It provided for a secure harbor from which to patrol the Gulf of Mexico and the entrance to the Straits of Florida.

It's much more open now than it was originally; all of the gun embrasures were fitted with Totten gunports. The eight inch thick iron shutters were balanced so that the gasses leaving a cannon's barrel before the shot would push them open, with the shutter rebounding closed after the shot passed through. Over a century and a half, they were damaged by water and began cracking the fort's facade by swelling, so they've been removed. A would-be pirate king would want to find ways to fill some of that open area with protective cover.

The one weakness of the location is a lack of fresh water. The design attempted to solve this by placing columns of sand within the walls of the fort, leading to cisterns below, so that rainwater falling on the fort would drain through the sand as a filtration medium. Unfortunately, the sand that was used contains mineral salts, so the water is undrinkable, though it can be used for washing or cooking if the cracked cisterns (from settling) can be patched. When the fort saw its heaviest use during the Civil War, steam condensers were used to produce water, and a post-Twilight War occupier would need some sort of method of producing drinkable water, possibly salvaged from ships.
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  #33  
Old 08-22-2020, 06:40 PM
cawest cawest is offline
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using old sea land vans filled with dirt. you would need to do some bracing but thank about a two of three layer van. the bottom two are "solid" but the top one has heavy still plate on the inside and when the top guards drop down from the top of the top layer into the number 3 to fire at heavy attackers.
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  #34  
Old 08-23-2020, 03:22 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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using old sea land vans filled with dirt. you would need to do some bracing but thank about a two of three layer van. the bottom two are "solid" but the top one has heavy still plate on the inside and when the top guards drop down from the top of the top layer into the number 3 to fire at heavy attackers.
Sea containers (both the 4500lb 20ft and the 8000lb 40ft versions) are reinforced to support up to 67,200 TOTAL pounds including 59,200lbs of cargo in addition to the container (for a 40ft container). You only need to line the inside with a single layer of sandbags to stop .30 caliber rounds. 3 rows of sandbags will stop a .50 caliber BMG because these containers are designed to survive a deck stacking (LOADED) at sea. The 20ft container has 4 corner tie-downs rated at 10K each and the 40ft container has either 6 or 8 tie-downs depending on the generation.

I wouldn't fill tires to make fortifications either. In modern war, a single flaming round will ignite those tires and they will burn INTENSELY, producing a choking poisonous smoke to boot. However, using them as a flaming barricade IS a viable tactic as the Skinnies proved in Somalia.

Last edited by swaghauler; 08-23-2020 at 03:47 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2020, 02:36 AM
wolffhound79 wolffhound79 is offline
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Using sea cans welded together with firing ports cut in could be a good option for cover, sand bags to help reinforce. One thing Ive used in my campaigns is jersey barriers. Easy enough with a crane or forklift to remove from hiways and construction sites and stack able. In our local cement plant they have walls made with the large brick like lego cement blocks. Many of the cement plants here make and use them in there yards especially the landscaping yards to keep rock and dirt separated and they have hooks in them to lift and place them. there about 2 feet tall and wide by 4 feet long.
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  #36  
Old 08-24-2020, 06:45 PM
micromachine micromachine is offline
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Default Improvised Fortifications

Sea cans would be good with sandbags on the outside and the inside, not to mention some chain link to act as " heat killer", and you have a viable keep. You would need to incorporate grenade sumps and ammo storage, and some way to prevent water infiltration.
The only real problem is how do you move them, cut holes, and make them into fortifications without power tools, lift trucks or boom trucks? To be sure, they could be nudged about by tracked vehicles, but we are really talking about precision emplacement, and nudges (burning precious fuel) are only broad strokes.
Sandbags, sharpened stakes, shovels, axes, saws and picks with be the bastion makers of this era, coupled with copious amounts of manual labour.
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  #37  
Old 08-24-2020, 07:52 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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S
The only real problem is how do you move them, cut holes, and make them into fortifications without power tools, lift trucks or boom trucks? To be sure, they could be nudged about by tracked vehicles, but we are really talking about precision emplacement, and nudges (burning precious fuel) are only broad strokes.
Sandbags, sharpened stakes, shovels, axes, saws and picks with be the bastion makers of this era, coupled with copious amounts of manual labour.
The same way the Egyptians built the pyramids. Come-alongs, block & tackle, rolling pins (small but long steel pins to roll on like a bearing), and slides (greased plywood ramps) all for the assist. The winches found on most US military vehicles will pull from 10K to 25K pounds and combined with rolling pins and levers, could position weights as heavy as 50K pounds. How do I know this? We use them all the time on the farm.
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  #38  
Old 08-25-2020, 12:47 AM
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A 20-footer weighs about 2 tonnes and a 40-footer weighs about 4 tonnes. These are well within a lot of load ranges for a derrick. You can build a big A-frame and get a trailer under it. You'll need chains, winches and cargo handling knowledge.

Now, trailers tend to have been left on nice flat ground but of course people are going to want them elsewhere. At this point you'll want as you said a crane. However by 2000ad they're everywhere (my players are looking for one now) and craning stuff around is bread-and-butter work for most people by the time 2000ad rolls around.

By the way, those containers use Weathering steel (often known as "Cor-Ten" which is a trademark). While this stuff rusts slowly your player-made welds will rust at a normal rate unless they use specialist equipment which really isn't worth the bother. The walls are generally just under 2mm thick of mild steel equivalent.
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  #39  
Old 08-27-2020, 06:37 PM
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Just some more on tank turrets being used for fortifications, Austria apparently had quite a few built into their Schleinzerwall bunker system.

Austria maintained a vast array of older tank turrets emplaced in fortifications. According to this site, Austria had: 48 75mm turrets (M4?), 24 85mm T-34 turrets (perhaps as many as 44), 56 83.4mm (20lb) Charioteer turrets, 143 90mm M36 turrets, 148 105mm Centurion turrets bought around 1980, plus another 226 105mm Centurion turrets after 1985.
This quote is taken from the Austrian OOB provided in the thread about Raellus' Austria sourcebook.
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4178 Post #27 - however the link to the source of this info is now a dead link but the following link has some supporting information: - https://www.unterirdisch-forum.de/in...tsching.15479/

The construction work on the bunker line, which was also called "Schleinzerwall" (Karl Schleinzer: Minister of Defense from 1961 to 1964; note), with its permanent structures and other fortifications, was largely completed by 1964. During the Cold War, this wall was considered first line of defense and bulwark for a possible attack from the east - specifically from Hungary. Between the Danube and Wiener Neustadt, a total of around 140 systems of different sizes and with different armament were built ...
The "Schleinzerwall" was built even before the spatial defense existed, as a reaction to the Hungarian crisis of 1956. Its construction established the permanent defense systems in Austria during the Cold War. These were built increasingly from the 1970s as part of the space defense concept. The facility on the Ungerberg was integrated into this concept and is therefore also a witness of this era
. Armed Forces - TRUPPENDIENST - Issue 4/2015 - Ungerberg Bunker - Relic of the Cold War
This quote is taken from the same site linked to from the first quote, page 2, post #26
https://www.unterirdisch-forum.de/in...g.15479/page-2
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  #40  
Old 08-27-2020, 11:07 PM
pansarskott pansarskott is offline
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Sweden used old tank turrets (37 or 75 mm) for defence of airports and coastal defence. IIRC 37 mm was used on airport, enough penetration to ruin a BMD crew's day. 75 mm was used in both roles.

75 mm:
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  #41  
Old 08-28-2020, 09:52 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Originally Posted by ChalkLine View Post
A 20-footer weighs about 2 tonnes and a 40-footer weighs about 4 tonnes. These are well within a lot of load ranges for a derrick. You can build a big A-frame and get a trailer under it. You'll need chains, winches and cargo handling knowledge.

Now, trailers tend to have been left on nice flat ground but of course people are going to want them elsewhere. At this point you'll want as you said a crane. However by 2000ad they're everywhere (my players are looking for one now) and craning stuff around is bread-and-butter work for most people by the time 2000ad rolls around.

By the way, those containers use Weathering steel (often known as "Cor-Ten" which is a trademark). While this stuff rusts slowly your player-made welds will rust at a normal rate unless they use specialist equipment which really isn't worth the bother. The walls are generally just under 2mm thick of mild steel equivalent.
I've seen roughnecks lacking equipment move stuff using techniques similar to this guy but he has moving weight literally "down to a science."

https://youtu.be/E5pZ7uR6v8c?t=90
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  #42  
Old 08-30-2020, 11:14 AM
Wolf sword Wolf sword is offline
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Default What is old could be new again.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...sses-in-africa

Here in the US one could see civil war era forts being reused especially if they were restored as a historic site.
Or if one of the PC was a history major they could whip up something like the link quick enough.
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  #43  
Old 08-30-2020, 01:37 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf sword View Post
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...sses-in-africa

Here in the US one could see civil war era forts being reused especially if they were restored as a historic site.
Or if one of the PC was a history major they could whip up something like the link quick enough.
There aren't that many surviving Civil War forts. A lot of them were earthworks that dissolved back into the landscape as oddly hilly terrain after the war, while others have been torn down and built over, while still others (especially out west) were garrisons without permanent fortifications. Excluding the ones already mentioned (Monroe and Jefferson), surviving hard fortifications used in the Civil War include (all build dates are when construction started):

Fort Jay (New York, NY) - built 1794 on Governors Island.
Castle Williams (New York, NY) - built 1807 on Governors Island.
Fort Schuyler (New York, NY) - built 1833 at Throggs Neck.
Fort Tompkins (New York, NY) - built 1847 to protect the landward approach to the harbor forts.

Fort Delaware (Pea Patch Island, DE) - built 1817.

Fort Gaines (Dauphin Island, AL) - built 1821.
Fort Morgan (Gasque, AL) - built 1818. These two forts together protected the entrance to Mobile Bay.

Fort Independence (Boston, MA) - built 1833 on Castle Island.
Fort Warren (Boston, MA) - built 1833 on Georges Island.

Fort Jackson (Plaquemines Parish, LA) - built 1822.
Fort St. Philip (Plaquemines Parish, LA) - built after War of 1812 on the site of an earlier fortification. Only accessible by boat. Floods at high tide due to erosion of a protective levee. These two forts protected the entrance to New Orleans.

Fort Knox (Prospect, ME) - built 1844. Only partially built, protects the mouth of the Penobscot River.

Fort Massachusetts (West Ship Island, MS) - built 1859. A brick-and-mortar sea fort, the brick was unrestored between the fort's completion in 1866 and a program in 2001.

Fort McHenry (Baltimore, MD) - built 1798.

Fort Mifflin (Philadelphia, PA) - built 1771 as Fort Island Battery. The only active military base in the US older than the Declaration of Independence.

Fort Moultrie (Charleston, SC) - built 1776.
Castle Pinckney (Charleston, SC) - built 1810. Mostly in ruins.
Fort Sumter (Charleston, SC) - built 1829.

Fort Point (San Francisco, CA) - built 1853 to protect the harbor.

Fort Popham (Phippsburg, ME) - built 1861, never finished. Protects the mouth of the Kennebec River.

Fort Preble (South Portland, ME) - built 1808, site of Southern Maine Community College since 1952.
Fort Gorges (Portland Harbor, ME) - built 1858, only accessible by boat.
Fort Scammell (House Island, ME) - built 1808. All three of these forts defended Portland's harbor.

Fort Pulaski (Savannah, GA) - built 1829.

Fort Rodman (New Bedford, MA) - built 1857, never finished.

Fort Sewall (Marblehead, MA) - built 1742.

Fort Trumbull (New London, CT) - built 1839 on the site of a 1777 fortification.
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  #44  
Old 08-30-2020, 01:50 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Default Even Older Than US Forts

For those of you playing Allegheny Uprising, Ft. Ligonier sits southeast of Pittsburgh on RT 31 and just 2 miles east of I76E (Toll) south of New Stanton and north of Johnstown. It is fully restored and dates to the French & Indian War.

https://youtu.be/mNuu4ozZO6A

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  #45  
Old 08-31-2020, 03:35 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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For those of you playing Allegheny Uprising, Ft. Ligonier sits southeast of Pittsburgh on RT 31 and just 2 miles east of I76E (Toll) south of New Stanton and north of Johnstown. It is fully restored and dates to the French & Indian War.

https://youtu.be/mNuu4ozZO6A

Swag
It would probably be less fully restored or restored significantly differently in the T2K timeline. The earliest reconstruction work dates back to the 1950s, but the fascine battery, outer retrenchments, and lower historic area structures were built in the mid to late 1990s.

There's also Fort Roberdeau outside Altoona, which was reconstructed in 1976 for the Bicentennial.

Fayette County has the reconstructed Fort Necessity, which I've visited for a reenactment day. It would be totally unsuitable in a post-apocalyptic scenario. It was built to protect a storehouse from friendly looters, rather than as a battle fortification. It's made of thin planking and is barely large enough to contain a supply shed, no barracks or any bastions or anything of that sort.


Virginia would have few ready fortifications. Fort Monroe, Fort Norfolk, and Fort Wool would all likely suffer damage if not destruction in the nuclear exchange. The only other fortification I know of in good shape is the earthwork Fort Ward in Arlington, which is 90-95% preserved (including embrasures, though I'm not sure of the condition of the magazines) as a city park and museum. Not relevant for T2K but of interest for history buffs is that the museum at Fort Ward has one of only three surviving Hale rocket launchers in the US.



Maryland has a few potentially useful forts. Fort Frederick out in Washington County is a stone star fort right on the Potomac River. It's not designed to resist artillery, but it would be a useful fortification. I've visited this one and it would need work to rebuild the earthen platforms in the bastions, but it looks quite usable.

One oddball is Fort Carrol, an abandoned seafort in Baltimore Harbor. It's been abandoned since 1921 except for use as a firing range during WW2.

Outside of DC is Fort Washington, built in the early 1800s to guard the Potomac. There's a stone-and-brick fort and three surviving concrete and steel Endicott batteries (out of eight originals). I haven't visited this one, but it's on my to-do list once it fully reopens (it's currently closed to vehicular traffic because the trails are in heavy use by locals).
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  #46  
Old 08-31-2020, 05:51 PM
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Another one to add to the list is Fort Snelling
https://www.mnhs.org/fortsnelling
It also had a bunch of latter added building post Civil war and up to WW2.
I live near this one if anyone needs more info or pictures.
The state historical soc took over in the 70s and ran it as living history site.

Last edited by Wolf sword; 08-31-2020 at 05:54 PM. Reason: adding more info
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  #47  
Old 09-01-2020, 08:12 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Another one I didn't see listed is Fort Niagara.
https://www.oldfortniagara.org/
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  #48  
Old 09-15-2020, 02:24 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Another one I didn't see listed is Fort Niagara.
https://www.oldfortniagara.org/
A nice place. It would completely control all shipping in the Niagra River and the Welland Canal which bypasses the Falls. The place is in good condition too.
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  #49  
Old 09-15-2020, 02:33 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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[QUOTE=Vespers War;84962]It would probably be less fully restored or restored significantly differently in the T2K timeline. The earliest reconstruction work dates back to the 1950s, but the fascine battery, outer retrenchments, and lower historic area structures were built in the mid to late 1990s.


I know. I was there for most of it as this is a favorite "haunt" of mine. I agree that most of the buildings would be "restored" differently (Hesco construction anyone?) but a lot of the excavations were done in time for the Twilight War.

One interesting feature of the Fort is the large "assembly area" on the higher hill above the batteries. This wasn't supposed to be a large open area. The French planned on building a "fortified manor house" like those found at Fort Niagra and other older NW US forts. These structures would include a large meeting/gathering hall as well as a very nice residence for a "lord" or "administrator." They were primarily used as a "seat of government" and meetings and trials would be held there. The upper stories would be living quarters for the person in charge of that region. The fort was abandoned by the French before a "government house" was erected there.

I could see a commanding watch tower being built there in 2000.
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