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  #31  
Old 08-17-2020, 03:43 PM
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Default Where Did All the Tanks (and Subs) Go?

Does Last Submarine categorically state that there are no operational Soviet diesel or nuclear attack subs by mid-'98?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
And also the US Army Sourcebook was very clear on what units got hit getting across - i.e. it mentioned several by name that ran into Soviet raiders and lost a lot of men and equipment getting to the front - and none of those three units have any losses mentioned in transit.
The VG's aren't super detailed or specific about how vehicle losses were incurred in every case. It's perfectly plausible that a ship carrying 42 ID's tanks was sunk with minimal loss of life, and therefore didn't warrant a mention.

Alternatively, perhaps the navy couldn't find a merchantman (or more than one) capable of carrying more than 10-20 MBTs so most of the 42nd IDs tanks were left in the States?

On the other hand, if 42nd ID was in Yugoslavia as long as some of you think (based on the conflicting dates given in the USAVG), then combat attrition is a perfectly reasonable explanation for its small number of M60 MBTs in July, 2000.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2020, 04:06 PM
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Last Submarine pretty much indicates that there arent any subs left except the two US subs that are mentioned - keep in mind how surprised the captain is in Boomer that the Soviets may have an operational Boomer that is still around - and its very late 1998 by the time the convoys sail for Yugoslavia - given the fuel condition I dont see the Soviets sending out diesel subs into the Med - which is the probable location of any interception - i.e. the US shipping lanes by then were either around the Cape to the Middle East or to Germany and the UK - going the Med route probably would be a total surprise to the Soviets -

as in "what the heck are they doing send three divisions thru the Med?"

I am betting the lack of tanks by mid 2000 is much more so the lack of spares - that there are probably a lot of M60A4's sitting in US rear area depots that are non-operational - or its fuel considerations and they may have a lot of tanks left but literally no fuel to operate more than a few at a time

similar to what the Germans went thru in spring 45 - they literally lost hundreds of tanks because there was no fuel to run them and they got overrun at rear area bases and supply depots
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2020, 04:24 PM
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Default The Italian Job

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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Last Submarine pretty much indicates that there arent any subs left except the two US subs that are mentioned - keep in mind how surprised the captain is in Boomer that the Soviets may have an operational Boomer that is still around - and its very late 1998 by the time the convoys sail for Yugoslavia - given the fuel condition I dont see the Soviets sending out diesel subs into the Med - which is the probable location of any interception - i.e. the US shipping lanes by then were either around the Cape to the Middle East or to Germany and the UK - going the Med route probably would be a total surprise to the Soviets -
"Pretty much"? I was hoping for a quote or something. Assuming it's an accurate representation of what is stated in Last Sub, Boomers were priority targets from day 1 of the war (routinely tagged and tailed during peacetime) so it makes sense that few, if any, of them would still be afloat in mid-t-late '98. But, Boomers and attack subs are different beasts. It's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be any Soviets attack subs still operating in the Atlantic in '98 (although I agree it's unlikely that any would still be operating in the Med, given it's limited routes of ingress and egress).

An alternative explanation is that a ship carrying 42nd ID's armor was sunk by an Italian* or Greek diesel boat. They're quiet and the Adriatic is their backyard.

*In my treatment of Kenya, Lions of Twilight, I had an Italian diesel sink the ship that was transporting the vehicles of 173rd's motorized battalion to Mombasa, which is why it ended up equipped with French armored cars.

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  #34  
Old 08-17-2020, 04:47 PM
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Default The Polish Job

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Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Does Last Submarine categorically state that there are no operational Soviet diesel or nuclear attack subs by mid-'98?
If you accept Challenge as canon (I know some people do and some people don't; I also know it's often used as a reference point for a later article about some US Navy destroyers) the Poles have one

Quote:
Challenge Magazine 25, Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast
The current Polish naval presence at Gydnia consists of one Whiskey Class submarine, three Osa class guided missile patrol boats, five P6 Class patrol torpedo boats, and one T43 class ocean minesweeper
If the Poles have one it probably stands to reason that the Russians have a few (the Poles only had four to start with, so that represents 25% of their submarine fleet having survived to 2000 - that's impressive, although granted IRL they were all retired in 1986.)
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2020, 05:24 PM
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Yeah, if the Poles can keep a sub operational in the Baltic, it stands to reason that the Soviets could keep at least a handful of attack subs alive in the Atlantic through 1998. In what time frame does Challenge say that Polish sub is operational?

Also, I checked the color plate of the 42nd ID's M60A4 in the USVG and it's labelled as being from Spring, 1999. So, those of you who argued that the 42nd ID arrived in Yugoslavia in 1998, with or around the same time as the two US light infantry divisions, you're probably right, and I am probably wrong.

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  #36  
Old 08-17-2020, 06:35 PM
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While I know this is not Soviet, in regards to submarines, in Twilight Encounters, the adventure "What's Polish for G'Day" states that the French have at least one operational submarine operating in the Baltic although it doesn't mention any details about the sub.
It's implied that this sub travelled to Australia then back to Europe and probably will return the Australians home after the mission.
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2020, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
While I know this is not Soviet, in regards to submarines, in Twilight Encounters, the adventure "What's Polish for G'Day" states that the French have at least one operational submarine operating in the Baltic although it doesn't mention any details about the sub.
It's implied that this sub travelled to Australia then back to Europe and probably will return the Australians home after the mission.
Ugh. That one short scenario with that one throwaway line about the "Organisation of Non-irradiated Nations" has perhaps given me more headaches than just about anything else over the last couple of years!
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2020, 11:59 PM
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Well considering that the Aussies are listed as having said it in a jokey manner, you could write it off as being exactly that, a joke, with no substance behind it other than France and Australia co-operating on what could well be the only time they co-operate on such a scale.
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  #39  
Old 08-18-2020, 12:45 AM
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Okay so if we are talking about the convoy and its loses while in route lets pull somethings apart and think about this logically.

The presumption that any RO/RO ships would have survived post 1997 is interesting. Even more so based on how the write ups of the naval combat in the core rule book, "Last Submarine" trilogy, "Gateway to the Spanish Main", "Going Home" and the various Challenge write ups. Effectively all the pre-war fast supply ships and most modern merchant ships are sitting at the bottom of the ocean either from hostile attack or from being caught in port when the nuclear strikes were occurring. Nearly all of them agree that the major fleets of the pre-war era have quit to exist and that there are very few of the warring nations and neutral shipping in the combat zones that exists above small intra-coastal shipping. Anything that seems to go across the world is doing so at great risk to not only breaking down when it arrives or to attack by whatever lays out there past the edge of the "known" world.

If we are talking about the US trying to pull together some shipping, then we are talking about then for the US Department of Transportation Maritime Administration National Defense Ready Reserve Fleet, the ships at the various "Ghost Fleet" stations, such as one at James River, VA located near Fort Eustis in the Chesapeake Bay. The other locations at least in pre-1989 timeline would have included:
  • Beaumount Texas
  • Suisan Bay, CA
  • Long Beach, CA
  • Bremeton, WA
  • Buzzard Bay, MA
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • Norfolk, VA
  • Newport News, VA
  • Alameda, CA
  • Baltimore, MD
  • New Orleans, LA
  • James River, VA
Which again most of these regions have a nuclear strike at or very nearby them in 1997 and therefore aren't giving up much. The few in non-targeted zones probably have the wrong types of ships to move any armor of any healthy amount successfully and rapidly offload it.

That list of places is just to name a few places. I have been near the one in the James river about 15 yrs ago. Which is a great place to go fishing. If you can do it and not get hassled by the game warden or security Most of the ships then were retired 1970s or some 1980s era bulk freighters or old freighters that were still using King Post cranes. Which is how the old amphibious cargo ships could do offload things like tanks into landing craft or on to piers. Most of them were poorly maintained and more then a few were slowly sinking at their anchorages due to poor maintenance.

So that said, we are probably looking in late 1997-1998 time frame. So very old cobble together freighters that use bulk cargo loading options and if we are lucky maybe a single larger more modern containerized freighter, but that is going to be on the very small size compared to ones that would have been in services in lines like Marsek or such in the period right before the war.
___________________________________
Okay all that said, so potential threats to the convoy post 2000 from naval units. All through the second page of this thread is the assumption about submarines. So lets talk about who had submarines and who didn't

Here are some nations during the Cold War from the Eastern North American Seaboard to Yugoslavia/Jugoslavia coast that has submarines
  • Cuba
  • France
  • Spain
  • Libya
  • Italy
  • Greece
  • Turkey
  • Egypt
  • Canada
Out of that list only the French have nuclear powered submarines. The rest of those nations use some diesel-electric power for their submarines. The Cuban, Egyptian, Libyan submarines are some variant of a Soviet Whiskey or Foxtrot class. While the Greeks and Turks both had damned near clones of Type 209 submarine that was built by the Germans in the 1960s. That isn't an exhaustive list either, nearly all the major naval powers of South America had a submarine of either US WW2 vintage or some licensed copy of a German Type 206/209.

Trying to find a diesel-electric is a serious PITA. Let me put it this way as a good descriptor of ASW combat against a capable submarine, put your ear to your flashlight with the light on and try to hear the battery running.
___________________________________
Quote:
It seems like a sideshow. I can't understand why, in terms of strategy, either the US or Soviet Union sent forces there (especially the latter, given that its new Warsaw Pact allies, the Italians and Greeks had already defeated the Yugoslavs and ignited internecine warfare.
So Yugoslavia/Jugoslavia (pick a dang spelling preference) was a weird country during the cold war. It was socialist, Tito was a socialist, however it was never fully went full bore in with the Soviets. If I remember reading the history right, Tito went from killing Germans to killing the NKVD for being the sons of unmarried women that they were. Going even further into the height of the Cold War during the period of Detente there was attempts by various presidents from Nixon on to woo Tito on over to our side or at least go non-aligned, but lean towards the socialists. Similar the Soviets tried to woo Tito to fully come on their team. Offering loans, arms, advisors and even offering to train their officers. One of the most famous ones that I know of is Milan Vego. So there is much more to the politics at the time that the game was being drafted with regards to Yugoslavia in the grander scheme of the Cold War.

So I think far from it being a side show, there was a feeling that ownership of Yugoslavia would have allowed for further control into the Carpathians and into the oil production areas around Poletsi as well major industrialized regions along the Danube and into what amounts to be Hungry, Czech, Southern Germany regions of heavy industry and arms manufacturing. Again owership of those regions and plants like äkoda would have been useful to again continued the war with weapons and heavy weapons like tanks or even some tankettes.


That is just my two shiny Lincoln heads on the whole matter.
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  #40  
Old 08-18-2020, 01:30 AM
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I think this is vaguely relevant to the overall conversation. https://youtu.be/iqK0MBfxlyo
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  #41  
Old 08-18-2020, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Yeah, if the Poles can keep a sub operational in the Baltic, it stands to reason that the Soviets could keep at least a handful of attack subs alive in the Atlantic through 1998. In what time frame does Challenge say that Polish sub is operational?
The article states that it refers to conditions as of the beginning of July 2000.
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  #42  
Old 08-18-2020, 06:57 AM
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I am betting the units got there pretty much undisturbed - as said before the US Army Sourcebook was pretty clear on who got nailed on the way and who didnt

and if the 42nd got sent there in Oct 98 with limited spares and fuel its pretty easy to see why they are down to 6 operational tanks by June 2000 - i.e. combat + breakdowns+lack of spares+lack of fuel+lack of kits to convert them over to alcohol (they arent in contact with the Milgov forces that have been doing this for two years in Germany and Poland)+overall lack of support = recipe to reduce number of tanks - especially over 21 months of combat and use

If they had arrived in late 1999 then I would say it was due to losing a ship or two for sure

Also all three divisions went by sea - if you look at the US Army Sourcebook if they went by air and sea or air alone it was made clear - all three of the Yugoslavia divisions went by sea alone

Also if you look the divisions that took hits from Soviet raiders or air on the way over all went over in 97 - i.e. by 98 of the five units that deployed by sea the only one mentioning Soviet raiders or air attacks is the 6th Marine going to Korea and that was in early 98
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Last edited by Olefin; 08-18-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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  #43  
Old 08-18-2020, 09:09 AM
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So I think far from it being a side show, there was a feeling that ownership of Yugoslavia would have allowed for further control into the Carpathians and into the oil production areas around Poletsi as well major industrialized regions along the Danube and into what amounts to be Hungry, Czech, Southern Germany regions of heavy industry and arms manufacturing. Again owership of those regions and plants like äkoda would have been useful to again continued the war with weapons and heavy weapons like tanks or even some tankettes.
I have come around to this way of thinking. Your earlier mention of the Yugoslavian offensive into Hungary (stopped at Lake Balaton) to link up with NATO forces pushing out of S. Germany lines up, time line-wise, with the arrival of the American divisions in Yugoslavia. It makes sense that they were sent to support said offensive. IF it had been successful, it would have establish a land corridor between Yugoslavia and S. Germany, cutting Hungary in half and essentially liberating Austria, not to mention getting one step closer to recapturing the Romanian oil fields.

So now sending US forces to Yugoslavia in mind-to-late '98 makes a lot of strategic sense.

As for the timing of 42nd ID's dispatch/arrival, after checking the color plate of the 42nd ID M60A4 in the USVG, it's decided pretty conclusively that its deployment happened in the final third of 1998, not late 1999 (that single reference must be a typo). That means the strength figure given in the USVG probably reflects almost two years' worth of combat attrition, rather than losses sustained during transit across the Atlantic/Med. That said, I still think there were Soviet subs operating as commerce raiders during that time.

Thanks to all of you for helping me work this out.
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  #44  
Old 08-18-2020, 09:17 AM
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That was a lot of good discussion, all!

I was always willing to ignore the whole US deployment to Yugo. as silly IMC, but when you point to the timing with the NATO offensive south, it suddenly makes sense. So I am now in the same boat as Raellus, hopefully not a boat about to contact someone's sub in the eastern Med!

Sidebar: something that's influencing me is a game of Third World War (GDW) that I remember playing within the last 6 years or so-- about 4 weeks into the big war, NATO sent some of the still-arriving Americans into Croatia (7th LD, maybe the 101st or 10th MtnD?) to help the Italians stave off a Pact drive there. It wasn't much force, but it was enough to stall a secondary drive. I was the Pact player, and that was definitely a disappointment that I remember, even as I thought, "Why is he doing that?!"
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:31 AM
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So I am now in the same boat as Raellus, hopefully not a boat about to contact someone's sub in the eastern Med!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
Sidebar: something that's influencing me is a game of Third World War (GDW) that I remember playing within the last 6 years or so-- about 4 weeks into the big war, NATO sent some of the still-arriving Americans into Croatia (7th LD, maybe the 101st or 10th MtnD?) to help the Italians stave off a Pact drive there. It wasn't much force, but it was enough to stall a secondary drive. I was the Pact player, and that was definitely a disappointment that I remember, even as I thought, "Why is he doing that?!"
Interesting. In my T2kU (v1, of course), the US sends the 173rd Airborne Brigade from Vicenza, Italy to Romania in late December 1996, after the Italians break with NATO (but before they declare for the WTO) and Romania declares for NATO, to help the Romanians and Yugoslavians hold off the WTO invasion and defend the Ploesti Oil fields until more help can arrive. As it turns out, that help, IV Corps, doesn't arrive until autumn, 1998, and then it gets held up in Yugoslavia. It's a classic, "Good luck, you're on your own" scenario.

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  #46  
Old 08-18-2020, 11:22 AM
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You have to wonder if there will even be a deployment into Yugoslavia for the V4. All depends on how the timeline is modified.

The V1 still had Yugoslavia as a country

The V2.2 has Yugoslavia falling apart before the war even though the timeline also refers to the Yugoslavian Army - i.e. an editing mistake most likely -

From V2.2

It did mention that Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia are Italian satellite armies while Dalmatia, Montenegro and Macedonia are on their own.

Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina (called Herzegovina for short)
and Slovenia are independent states and consist largely of independent, insular or cantonment regions. Littoral communities not devastated by
military action are insular, and areas around the various military cantonments are disputed. Macedonia is entirely devastated, insular, or disputed (mostly by the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians).

The American Combat Vehicle Handbook still has the same deployments, same dates, same forces and same enemies
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  #47  
Old 08-18-2020, 08:03 PM
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Maybe not an editing mistake. During the first years of the conflict, the Serbian ground forces considered themselves the rightful Yugoslav Army and referred to themselves as such for a short time.
It's entirely possible that GDW tapped into that when they were writing that section.
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Old 08-25-2020, 11:36 PM
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Just stumbled across this again (I was aware of it from years ago but forgot about it), a fellow T2k gamer's take on Yugoslavia: -

Yugoslavia:2000
These notes provide more detailed background for Yugoslavia in Twilight:2000. Most importantly, these notes were first developed in 1991-2 and have almost no influence of the tortuous events of the last five years. The unit deployment come from Twilight:2000ís NATO and Warsaw Pact Vehicle Guides. Curiously enough, a lot of names that have since become better known appearÖ

Military Unit Locations
(as of Summer, 2000):

US (CivGov) Forces Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
IV Corp HQ Cantonment north of Split (Croatia).
42nd Inf Div Cantonment north of Split (Croatia). 3000 6 M60
76th Lt Inf Div Cantonment in Titograd (Montenegro). 1000
80th Lt Inf Div Cantonment north of Split (Croatia) 3000
Soviet Forces Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
Southern Front:
112th Air Asslt Bgd Beograd (Serbia). 700 2 Heli
20th Army:
9th Internal Rfl Div Mostar (SW Bosnia). 1000 Cav
73rd Gds Mot Rfl Div Sarajevo (Bosnia). 4000 2 T72
266th Motor Rfl Div Sarajevo (Bosnia). 4000
Serbian (US allied) Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
1st Provis Inf Div Near Beograd 2000 3 T74, M47
Kragujevac Inf Bgd Near Beograd 400
Valjevo Inf Bgd Near Beograd 500
Novi Sad Inf Bgd Near Beograd 300
Pancevo Inf Bgd Tuzla, Serbia 600
Nis Inf Bgd Lescovak (fighting Bulgarian bandits) 400
1st Prov Mtn Bgd Kosovska Mit, Kosovo (fighting Albanians) 700
Sabac Inf Bgd Vrsac, NW Serbia
(fighting bandits) 500
Croatia (anti-US, anti-Serb, anti-Soviet) Locations:
Unit Location Troops
Prvi Bgd Vicinity of Split (Dalmatia) 400
Drugi Bgd Dubrovnik (S Dalmatia) 800
Treci Bgd Sisak (central Croatia) 450
Cetvrti Bgd Lovran
(NW Croatia, near Rjieka) 200
Peti Bgd Sibenik
(Dalmatia, NW of Split) 500
Sesti Bgd Osijek (NE Croatia) 700
Sedmi Bgd Zagreb (N Croatia) 600
Osmi Bgd Vicinity of Split (Dalmatia) 200
Albanians (anti-US, anti-Serb) Locations:
Occupying parts of Kosovo region. Most local militias in Kosovo are ethnic Albanians.
Unit Location Troops
IV Inf Bgd Pec (Kosovo) 500
III Art Rgt Shkoder, Albania
(opposite US 76th) 400
Bulgaria (Pact ally) Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
28th Mot Div Belogradchik, NW Bulgaria 1000 2 T55
1st Mot Trng Div Sofia, W Bulgaria 800
9th Tank Bgd Rila, W Bulgaria 600 2 T55
Romanian (NATO ally) Locations:
Unit Location Troops
18th Mot Rfl Div Timisoara area.
Dispersed partisans 1100
2nd/6th Comb Mtn Bgd Turnu Severin area 900
Greece (anti-NATO) Locations:
Occupying Macedonia
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
Elements of Greek 9 Inf Div.:
Div HQ, Rfl Btn, Art Rgt, Tank Btn Skopje and Kumanovo
(closes passes to Kosovo) 100,400,600,200 12 Leopard I, 3 M-48
Rfl Rgt Kriva Palanka
(guards vs Bulgarians) 1000 3 M-48
Rfl Rgt Bitola
(blocks Albanians; pass to Greece) 900 2 M-48
Rfl Rgt Gevgelija
(guards pass to Thessaloniki) 1200 3 Leopard I
The Tank battalion is kept in reserve as a quick reaction force to back up the other regiments. The Greeks are well-supplied with men, tanks, and support equipment, but have limited fuel.


(On the webpage, there is a dead link here to a map of area)

History of US Units in Yugoslavia:
In one of the larger wasted efforts of the war, in the summer of 1998, the IV US Corps was brought over from the CivGov areas of the northeastern seaboard to Yugoslavia, in an attempt to prop up the resurgent Yugoslav government. However, almost as soon as they arrived, IV Corps ran into trouble.

The Yugoslav government they had been sent over to assist had been dismembered by the Italian military between the time CivGov had committed to rounding up IV Corps and the time the troops arrived after a slow crossing. In its place were the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia. Greece sent a fresh infantry division to occupy most of the province of Macedonia. The Italians withdrew most of their occupation forces, leaving a few to prop up Slovenia as a buffer. With the ability to strike back resistence crushed, Italy had little further interest in the area. The Russians held Serbia and Bosnia using forces from Romania.

Slovenia is an Italian satellite, a puppet state. All local militias have about half the numbers you'd expect due to arms confiscations.

Croatia is an open buffer state. The Italians (and the Russians) are banking on Croatian hate for Serbians to keep them apart and too divided to help remove the Pact forces. The Croatians are kind of against everyone: the Italians and the Russians (fear of occupation), the US troops (invasion), and the Serbians (long list of historical reasons).

Bosnia has no independent government. The Russians occupied the cities; internal strife between Croatian, Serbian, and Moslem populations keep it in turmoil. The Russians don't like to venture outside the cities much as everyone shoots at them.

Serbia's puppet government wouldn't last a day after the Russian troops left, and commands little outside the city of Beograd. Serbian militias operate independently of the puppet government to oppose the Russian invaders. They spent 1998 and 1999 squeezing the Russians into Beograd, and keep them surrounded while trying to bring the rest of the country under control. They steal most of their military supplies from the Russians.

No one has come after Montenegro except the Albanians to the South.

Shortly after landing at Split, IV Corps gained contact with military leaders in Serbia -- including their contacts from the former Yugoslav high command.

76th Division was embarked to support the Yugoslav army and Montenegran militia against invading Albanians. The light troops would not have fared well against the other major Yugoslav military problem - the Russians, then taking over occupation for the Italians. The 76th has gotten on well with the Montenegrans: their fighting spirit appeals to the warrior aspect of the culture and the 76th has done some clever work against Albanian raiders. They have also not been afraid to use their engineers and troops as muscle for public works programs. The local culture has a bit of a soft-spot for "Mad" Milo Coleman, the divisional CO.

The Croatians saw the US troops as aiding Serbian needs - not their own. So, the bulk of IV Corps (the 42nd Inf and 80th Lt Inf Div, plus most Corps assets) found itself fighting its way through the local population just to get at the Russians. Unfortunately, the friction with locals took the edge off IV Corps (which was not all that strong anyway), and they were unable to dislodge the Soviets. IV Corps halted and set up cantonments northwest of Split.


Found at the following page: -
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/yugonote.htm
His main T2k page: -
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/t2ksppt.htm
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Old 09-01-2020, 09:51 AM
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About 20 years ago I typed up a bunch of Orbats for the Balkans in T2K based on the available material that I had on hand. I'll post them up for people to look at.

ALBANIA

Albania wasn't badly damaged by the war and the Albanian High Command is concerned about an influx of refugees or marauders. Although most of the army is positioned along the borders blocking passes, some Albanian units have crossed into Yugoslavia.

Equipment is very basic and obsolete. Tanks are strictly T-54/T-55 and some T-34/85ís. Other vehicles include BTR-50/60ís, and trucks. Artillery is a mix of 152mm and 122mm howitzers, 130mm guns, Chinese 107mm MRLís, and 160mm, 120mm and 82mm mortars. There are also 85mm, 57mm, and 45mm anti-tank guns, RPG-2s and Chinese Type 21 recoilless rifles.

Albanian High Command
Tank Brigade
I Infantry Brigade
II Infantry Brigade
III Infantry Brigade
IV Infantry Brigade
III Artillery Regiment


TANK BRIGADE
It likes to consider itself as the main strike force of the Albanian High Command. It is based in Tirana, but in reality only controls a few km outside of the city.
Location: Tirana, Albania
Manpower: 500
Tanks: 3 (3 T-55)

I INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Debar in Yugoslavia, it has incorporated the remaining 120mm mortars of the now disbanded II Artillery Regiment.
Location: Debar, Yugoslavia
Manpower: 300
Artillery: 6 (6x 120mm mortars)

II INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Korce.
Location: Korce, Albania
Manpower: 400

III INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Vlore.
Location: Vlore, Albania
Manpower: 300

IV INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Pec, Yugoslavia. It has the two remaining howitzers and gun crew of the now disbanded I Artillery Regiment.
Location: Pec, Yugoslavia
Manpower: 300
Artillery: 2 (2 152mm howitzers)

III ARTILLERY REGIMENT
Based in Shkroder, its howitzers are largely out of ammunition and its personnel are largely serving as the garrison of the town. Partisans from this unit occasionally encounter American troops from the US 76th Infantry Division in Podgorica/Titograd, Yugoslavia, when supporting anti-American guerillas in the area.
Location: Shkroder, Albania
Manpower: 400
Artillery: 4 (4 122mm howitzers)
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Old 09-01-2020, 09:58 AM
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BULGARIA

The Bulgarian Army is described as less technically advanced than the army that invaded Thrace in 1912 (surely an exaggeration). However they do not seem to be motivated too much beyond preserving their own hold on power and keeping the loot for themselves.

Bulgarian tanks are mainly T-55 although they had T-72s and T-34/85ís. Other vehicles include BRDM-2ís, BRDM-1ís, MT-LBís, and BTR-60/50ís. Artillery is a mix of towed 122mm howitzers (must have some 152mm somewhere), 100mm and 76,2mm Anti-tank guns, and BM-21 MRLís, There is also SO-122 SP mortars, 120mm towed mortars, AT-3 Anti-Tank Missiles, RPG-7ís and ZU-23-4 and 37mm AAGís and SA-6 SAMís. They also have Mi-24, Mi-8, Mi-4, and Mi-2 helicopters. Some may still be kept airworthy as they have access to oil.


1st Army

1st Guards Motor Rifle Training Division
This division was badly damaged during the invasion of Romania. It was withdrawn to Sofia in 1997 for rest and refit where it has remained ever since.
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Manpower: 800

28th Motor Rifle Division
This unitís was badly damaged during the surprise Turkish Christmas attack. It was sent to Sofia area for refit and is currently in cantonment in the city of Belogradcik.
Location: Belogradcik, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,000
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)

9th Tank Brigade
This unit was one of the spearhead in the attack on Romania. It was mauled but stayed active until recalled to Bulgaria in 1998. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Rila.
Location: Rila, Bulgaria
Manpower: 600
Tanks: 3 (3x T-55)


2nd Army

2nd Motor Rifle Division
This unitís war record is unknown but may have been retained in Bulgaria for home defence duties. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Stara Zagora.
Location: Stara Zagora, Bulgaria
Manpower: 2,000

17th Motor Rifle Division
This unit was disbanded in the early 1990ís and hastily reformed in 1997 and sent to Romania. It fought with distinction in Romania and was withdrawn to Bulgaria in 1999 to assume internal security duties.
Location: Khaskovo, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,200

19th Motor Rifle Training Division
This unit had a similar functionn to the 18th division and was strictly a training unit for the 1st and 2nd Armies. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Pazardzik.
Location: Pazardzik, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,800

5th Tank Brigade
This unit was disbanded in the early 1990ís and was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian tank brigades and reinforces with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to China to assist Bulgariaís Soviet allies. In early 2000 the commander pulled the division from the Chinese Front and began marching back to Europe along the Siberian railroad. It is currently as far west as Cheremkovo in Siberia, near Lake Baikal.
Location: Cheremkovo, Siberia
Manpower: 300

11th Tank Brigade
This unitís war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Karlova.
Location: Karlova, Bulgaria
Manpower: 500
Tank: 1 (1x T-55)

2nd Army Reconnaissance Battalion
This unitís war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in Sofia serving as an escort for the Bulgarian High Command.
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Manpower: 100
Tanks: 4 (4x BRDM-2)


3rd Army

3rd Motor Rifle Division
This unitís war record is unknown but may have been retained in Bulgaria for home defence duties. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Burgas.
Location: Burgas. Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,500
Boats: 39


7th Motor Rifle Division
This unitís war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Yambol and functions as a second line of defense in case of a Turkish attack..
Location: Yambol, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,200

18th Motor Rifle Training Division
This unit was little more than a training unit during the war with its trainees shipped out to other units. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Shumen watching the Romanian border.
Location: Shumen, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,400

13th Tank Brigade
This unitís war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Sliven.
Location: Sliven, Bulgaria
Manpower: 300
Tanks: 4 (4x T-55)

24th Tank Brigade
This unitís war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Aytos and is known to be extorting from the local population and travelers through the area.
Location: Aytos, Bulgaria
Manpower: 400
Tanks: 4 (4x T-55)
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:03 AM
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ROMANIA

Much of the Romanian Army was destroyed in the war, but some units have survived although there is no longer a Romanian high command system. There are also many other former Romanian personnel who are now fighting as small bands of partisans. Surviving Romanian Army units are still in fairly good shape, having absorbed other units or making use of both caches of weapons stashed across the Romania countryside and captured Soviet and Hungarian weapons. Partisans are not nearly as well equipped but better armed and supplied than many of their counterparts in other countries.

Romanian equipment is predominantly Warsaw Pact, although they have produced a lot themselves. Tanks are TR-85s, M-77s and M-81s (Romanian upgrades of the T-55), T-72s, and T-54/55s, and T-34/85s. Other vehicles include BRDM-3s, BRDM-2s, TAB-77, and BTR-60/50ís. Artillery is a mix of towed 152mm and 122mm howitzers, 100mm and 85mm anti-tank guns, and BM-21 MRLís. There is also 120mm and 82mm mortars, AT-3 anti-tank missiles, RPG-16, RPG-7ís and ZU-23-4, 57mm and 37mm AAís and SA-6 and SA-7 SAMís. The Romanians also used IAR-316Bs and IAR-330s helicopters, but these are unlikely to be still in use, although Soviet forces in Romania may use some captured helicopters along with their own.


1st Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as ant-Soviet partisans in the Bucharest area.
Location: Bucharest area, Romania
Troops: 900
Tanks: 1 (1x TR-85)

9th Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as anti-Hungarian partisans in the Cluj area.
Location: Cluj area, Romania
Manpower: 1,100

18th Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as anti-Hungarian partisans east of Timisoara.
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Manpower: 1,100
Tanks: 2 (2x TR-85)

2nd/6th Combined Mountain Brigade
This unit is an amalgamation of two mountain infantry units from the pre-war Romanian 3rd Army. It is divided into a number of cantonments along the Danube River from the town of Turnu Severin to the famed Iron Gate Pass near Osrova.
Location: Turnu Severin area, Romania
Manpower: 900


Both the Soviets and the Hungarians have forces in Romania.

Hungarian Army

3rd Combined Arms Corps
2nd Tank Brigade
1st Motorised Rifle Brigade


Soviet Army

DANUBE FRONT
32nd Air Assault Brigade
3rd Guards Tank Army
13th Tank Division
14th Tank Division
42nd Guards Tank Division
117th Guards Tank Division
38th Army
24th Motorised Rifle Division
97th Motorised Rifle Division
Unattached (From Kiev MD)
29th Guards Motorised Rifle Division
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  #52  
Old 09-01-2020, 10:11 AM
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YUGOSLAVIA

Recent History

With the death of General Tito in 1987 separatist movements started to develop with the various Yugoslavia states. By 1991 the governments of Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia officially seceded from the country. The Serb dominated national government sent troops to stop this with the breakaway state militias fighting back. The Serbs managed to control Bosnia, but after the new Bosnian governments request for Yugoslav national troops to withdraw was ignored, the Bosnians and other states rose up in outright rebellion against the Serbs. The escalation of violence led to Italian and Hungarian troops crossing into Slovenia and Croatia, mainly to stop the war from spilling over the borders into their territory.

In 1996 a Serb forces was dispatched to Romania to assist the Soviet/Warsaw Pact invasion, which weakened the Serb position in Yugoslavia and encouraged anti-Serb guerillas. With the situation worsening Italian troops fully entered Slovenia and Croatia, which effectively delineated the borders, and in the south the Greeks annexed Macedonia supported by the Albanians who wanted Kosovo. However the Albanian claim was not supported by Italy or Greece, leading Albania to break from the alliance with Greece and Italy and encourage Albanian guerillas to attack Greek forces.

The departure of Italian and Hungarian forces due to the war in the rest of Europe encouraged the Serbs to try and link up with NATO forces. This ultimately failed but the prospect of NATO forces in the Balkans led to a Soviet invasion in 1997 which gained control of much of Bosnia. It also also to the US sending troops to help the Serbs and anti-Soviet partisans. In 2000 Yugoslavia is a war thorn and divided country with numerous factions, both native and foreign vying for control and fighting among themselves. Each of the Yugoslavian states has its own governments, which are basically war councils as they do little else but fight each other. Both the US (CivGov) and the Soviets have troops in the country, with the US backing the Serbs and the Soviets backing the Croatians.

The various Yugoslav armies are in poor shape in 2000. The military situation in Yugoslavia has also been described as a snake pit, due to fluid and interchangeable borders and alliances, and almost no pre-war Yugoslav national army units have survived the war. Small arms come from many sources, both Yugoslavian, NATO, Soviet or others. Heavy weapons, automatic weapons and ammunition are in short supply and have been supplemented by civilian semi-automatics, bolt action rifles and shotguns.

The Yugoslav army and the successor states used Yugoslav T-84ís, and T-72/74ís, T-54/55ís, M-47 and M4 Sherman tanks. Other vehicles include PT-76, BRDM-2, M-8, and M3A1 scout vehicles, and M-80, M-60P and BTR-50/40 APCís. Artillery includes 122mm and 105mm howitzers, 100mm, 90mm and 76.2 mm anti-tank guns, 120mm and 82mm mortars, 105mm and 57mm recoilless rifles, AT-3 and BOV-AT missiles, 37mm and 20mm AAG and SA-7 SAM.
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:13 AM
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Serbia

The Serbian Republic has organised two brigades which are under the control of the Serbian High Command. There are also six locally raised Serb militia brigades and numerous small bands of anti-Soviet partisans. The Serbian Republic forces are better armed than the militias and probably have sizeable stocks of vehicles and weaponry that they inherited from the Yugoslav national army. The Serbs are pro-NATO and are actively fighting the Soviets, who have occupied the Serb capital Belgrade, and other former Yugoslav nations and partisans.

1st Provisional Infantry Divisions
This is a Serb Republic unit is currently located south and east of Belgrade fighting the Soviets.
Location: South and East of Belgrade, Serbia.
Manpower: 2,000
Tanks: 4 (3x M-84, 1x M-47)

1st Provisional Mountain Brigade
This is a Serb Republic unit is currently fighting the Albanian army and ethnic Albanian partisans in Kosovo, north and north east of Pec.
Location: Kosovska Mitrovica, Kosovo
Manpower: 700

Novi Sad Infantry Brigade
This unit is a Serb militia force fighting the Soviets to the north of Belgrade.
Location: North of Belgrade, Serbia
Manpower: 300

Sabac Infantry Brigade
This unit is a Serb militia force fighting the Soviets and marauders. It has recently recaptured the city of Vrsac near the Serbian border with Romania from a large band of marauders and is consolidating its hold on the area.
Location: Vrsac, Serbia
Manpower: 500

Valjevo Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is currently fighting the Soviets south west of Belgrade.
Location: South west of Belgrade, Serbia
Manpower: 500

Pancevo Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is currently located in Bosnia at the city of Tuzla, attempting to regain control of the area from bandits and marauders.
Location: Tuzla, Bosnia
Manpower: 600

Nis Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is fighting Bulgarian backed marauders in and around the city of Lescovak near the Serbian border with Bulgaria.
Location: Lescovak, Serbia
Manpower: 400

Kragujevac Infantry Brigade
This is a Serb militia unit fighting the Soviets in Belgrade.
Location: Belgrade area, Serbia
Manpower: 400
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:14 AM
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Croatia

The Croatian Republic is the second strongest native force in Yugoslavia, and it has organised eight militia infantry brigades to defend its territory. The Croatians are fighting the Serbs and US forces and have aligned themselves with the Soviets and other Warsaw Pact nations, which has kept them well supplied, but they have no tanks.

Prvi Brigade
This unit is based in coastal city of Split and serves as the Croatian garrison for the town.
Location: Split, Croatia
Manpower: 400

Drugi Brigade
This unit is based in the coastal town of Dubrovnik.
Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia
Manpower: 800

Treci Brigade
This unit is based in Sisak, south east of Zagreb and watches the south east border with Bosnia and is a second line of defence in case of a direct attack from Serbian territory.
Location: Sisak, Croatia
Manpower: 450

Cetvrti Brigade
This unit is based in Lovrec, north of Split. It was recently defeated by the US 42nd Infantry Division and has withdrawn to Lovrec to refit and recruit.
Location: Lovrec, Croatia
Manpower: 200

Peti Brigade
This unit is based in the coastal town of Sibenik.
Location: Sibenik, Croatia
Manpower: 500

Sesti Brigade
This unit is based in Osijek and would be the first line of Croatian defence from a Serbian attack across the Serbia border.
Location: Osijek, Croatia
Manpower: 700

Sedmi Brigade
This unit is the garrison for the Croatian capital Zagreb.
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Manpower: 600

Osmi Brigade
This unit is based in the Split area, patrolling the Croatian south western borders with Bosnia.
Location: Split, Croatia
Manpower: 200
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:15 AM
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Slovenia

Slovenian is the only other former Yugoslav state that has an organised army in T2K. Slovenia is probably the most stable part of the former Yugoslavia and has good relations with neighboring Italy. The Slovenians have an effective and well equipped militia force.

1st Provisional Brigade Group
Currently based in the Slovene capital Ljubljana, serving as the garrison for the city,
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Manpower: 600
Tanks: 3 (2x M84ís, 1x M4A3E8)

2nd Provisional Brigade Group
Currently based in the Slovenian city of Celje.
Location: Celje
Manpower: 400
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
Croatia
Do me a favor -- put a decent Croatian unit in Stanisic, Serbia. It was Croatian until the RL civil war, but is now about 40 km into Serbia.

It's my mother's home town.
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Old 09-01-2020, 10:23 AM
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Greece

Recent History

Greeceís entry into the war started in 1996 when Turkey invaded Cyprus. The Greek governed declared war on Turkey, sent forces to Cyprus, and invaded Thrace. Greece also negotiated a mutual defence treaty with Italy in order to defend the Adriatic, and both countries declared the sea off limits to NATO ships and all Turkish trade. At the end of 1996 Greek naval and air forces attacked a NATO convoy bound for Turkey, leading NATO to declared war on Greece and Italy to declare war on NATO. In order to neutralise the Mediterranean, NATO aircraft attacked Greek naval targets and began nuking Greek industrial centres. The Greek government soon collapsed and a military junta of generals took control, annexing Macedonia in the process. The generals soon began to squabble and the Macedonians put up string resistance, and soon the country began to revert to a city state form of government with the military forces of the generals controlling their own fiefdoms.

The Greek army is still organised along NATO standards, but its equipment comes from a variety of sources as the Greeks lost a lot of their original equipment in Thrace and the Yugoslav splinter states including Macedonia. Greece has one division in Yugoslavia.


9th INFANTRY DIVISION
The 9th division is occupying the Yugoslav state of Macedonia. It is HQ at Skopje, with units based at other Macedonian towns guarding against incursions from Albania, Bulgaria, and reinforcing Greek forces guarding against a Turkish incursion from Thrace.
Location: Skopje and Kumanova, Macedonia
Manpower: 4,300 (1,300 at Skopje/Kumanova, 1,000 at Kriva Palanka, 900 at Bitola, 1,200 at Gevgelija)
Tanks: 23 (12x Leopard 1, 3x M48A5 at Skopje/Kumanova, 3x M48A5 at Kriva Palanka, 2x M48A5 at Bitola, 3x Leopard 1 at Gevgelja)

3rd ARMOURED BRIGADE
Based at Thessalonika, this unit has close ties with the 11th Infantry Brigade and will react if the Turks attack out of Thrace.
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Manpower: 5,000
Tanks: 4 (3x T-72, 1x T-55)
Boats: 15

2nd INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Athens
Location: Athens
Manpower: 3,500
Tanks: 1 (1x T-62)
Boats: 40

3RD INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Larisa
Location: Larisa, Greece
Manpower: 750
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)

5th INFANTRY BRIGADE
This unit is conflict with the 2nd Infantry Brigade over resources.
Location: Piraeus, Greece
Manpower: 2,500
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)
Boats: 51

8TH INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Volos.
Location: Volos, Greece
Manpower: 2,000
Boats: 38

9th INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently base at Patros.
Location: Patros, Greece
Manpower: 1,500
Boats: 24

11TH INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Kavalla near the Turkish border, this unit is constantly involved in clashes with Turkish scouting and patrol units.
Location: Kavalla. Greece
Manpower: 3,000
Tanks: 2 (2x T-62)
Boats: 14

THE SPARTANS
A remnant of several Greek special forces units, they have set up a pseudo-Spartan society. They defend Sparta and occasionally hire out to neighboring cities as mercenaries.
Location: Sparta, Greece
Manpower: 1,000

1ST PARATROOPERS
The 1st Paratroopers are the last surviving Greek special forces unit, and are deadly rivals of the Spartans who they consider to be traitors.
Location: Corinth, Greece
Manpower: 250
Boats: 5

1ST CRETE BRIGADE
Currently based in Iraklion.
Location: Iraklion, Crete
Manpower: 450
Boats: 40

2ND CRETE BRIGADE
Currently based in Khania.
Location: Khania, Crete.
Manpower: 350
Boats: 20
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Old 09-17-2020, 12:38 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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FYI Yugoslavia is definitely a place that a GM who likes old equipment would love to run

Look at what they had as to tanks and tank destroyers - from the 1991 organization

Medium Tanks

M-4 Sherman Ė 630 (including M-32, M32B1 and M-74 tank recovery vehicles, stored in reserve)
T-34/85 Ė 889
M-47 Patton Ė 319
T-55 Ė 1614


Main Battle Tanks
T-72 Ė 73
M-84 Ė 443

Tank Destroyers
SU-100 Ė 40
M18 Hellcat Ė ~260
M36 Jackson Ė ~300
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