US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

[Webstral]

Corpus Christi was badly affected by a refinery strike. The details are in Red Star/Lone Star. If time allows today, I'll look for the specifics.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Corpus Christi was badly affected by a refinery strike. The details are in Red Star/Lone Star. If time allows today, I'll look for the specifics.

Just checked Howling Wilderness, Charleston got shwacked too, so count both museum carriers out. The MilGov forces in Ft. Dix tried to re-settle NYC and establish law and order there and suffered heavy casualties, so moving Intrepid, much less re-fitting her, wouldn't happen before NYC itself is sorted out.

[Olefin]

A Rock in Troubled Waters lists three Forrest Sherman DD's still very much afloat and in commission in late winter/early spring of 2001 as well as a coast guard vessel and several smaller vessels.

[Olefin]

I always take Howling Wildnerness as not very reliable - information they have in that module does not match info in other modules - for instance the Soviet Vehicle Guide specifically talks about the 49th Armored Division having a BMP-C captured in 1999 that served with the division for a number of years and finally retired and serving as a decoration at their HQ.

Howling Wildnerness says that the Milgov forces in the 90th Corps and Oklahoma are destroyed as fighting units by late 2001.

Sorry you cant have it both ways - you cant have one canon source say the division stayed intact and another saying it was destroyed.

Yet another reason I tend to ignore Howling Wildnerness. It contradicts not only other canon sources but in many places itself.

[Legbreaker]

USS Intrepid was decommissioned in the mid 70's. It's unlikely to be in a decent shape by 95 let alone 2000. It's also damn close to Central Park which I believe is a bit of a stronghold for anti-government forces. They might get a bit upset at somebody taking "their" carrier".

Originally Posted by Olefin

- for instance the Soviet Vehicle Guide specifically talks about the 49th Armoured Division having a BMP-C captured in 1999 that served with the division for a number of years and finally retired and serving as a decoration at their HQ.

Howling Wilderness says that the Milgov forces in the 90th Corps and Oklahoma are destroyed as fighting units by late 2001.

Sorry you cant have it both ways - you cant have one canon source say the division stayed intact and another saying it was destroyed.

I don't see any contradiction here at all. Note that Howling Wilderness states destroyed as a fighting unit, not completely and utterly wiped off the face of the planet.

The US 5th ID is another example of destroyed as a fighting unit, however we know they weren't killed to the last man and that there's still some respectably sized chunks of it in late 2000 floating about. give it a year or two and the 5th could have been reconstituted using surviving personnel, but perhaps at 10% of it's pre July 2000 strength.

[JHart]

Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by JHart

Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

Charleston took a direct hit, though.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

Alameda would've caught plenty of fallout and blast from the nukes that hit San Fran that Hornet is probably an irradiated wreck.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

The only one on the list not right next door to or directly at a primary site, Intrepid is the only hope for a re-workable flattop.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

Probably not decommissioned in the T2k 1e timeline.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.

Corpus Christi got hit.

I wish there were more salvageable big girls too but...thems the facts.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

The only one on the list not right next door to or directly at a primary site, Intrepid is the only hope for a re-workable flattop.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

USS Intrepid was decommissioned in the mid 70's. It's unlikely to be in a decent shape by 95 let alone 2000. It's also damn close to Central Park which I believe is a bit of a stronghold for anti-government forces. They might get a bit upset at somebody taking "their" carrier".

I have a dim, distant and therefore unreliable recollection of reading somewhere that in RL the Intrepid was not an easy vessel to move from it's T2K era mooring location because it was effectively silted in place. That would add an additional level of difficulty to any refurbishment of the vessel as a mobile platform, because if it's immobile due to its keel being glued to the river bottom by megatons of mud it won't easily become mobile again (obviously), and because any refurbishment on the scale required for a ship that long out of active service would need to be undertaken at an appropriate facility, not at a tourist dock in downtown Manhattan. Getting it to an overhaul facility would first require a large-scale, time and resource consuming dredging operation. That's a lot of preliminary work for a time-critical, resource-heavy project which carried a risk of becoming unfeasible or irrelevant over the time scale of the war.

[Olefin]

Leg,

If you read the Soviet Vehicle Guide it clearly implies the 49th holds together in the write up. The 5th was remnants here and there of 40 men or 50 men, but it wasnt a division any more. The way the original Escape scenario is written at most a couple hundred men made it out.

Heck in my campaign we ended up gathering almost every man of the 5th we could find - and in all it was about 140 men - hardly a division anymore. (the B troop of the Cav and Task Force Zulu for instance arent part of the 5th even if you have them join your group)

But the 49th is mentioned with a clear HQ and the BMP-C as a memorial there. A division isnt destroyed as a fighting unit and then has the kind of writeup mentioned in the Vehicle Guide.

Now the 90th Corps could still have broken up - keep in mind the Going Home scenario - some of the units stay on in Germany and are clearly still very much operational units but they arent responsible to Corps HQ anymore - so the 49th may have survived as an intact unit, still functional but not as part of 90th Corps which may have broken apart as a Corps.

Obviously at some point within the operational life of that BMP-C if the Guide is to be taken as canon they were stationed at Fort Sill again.

And one thing about Howling Wildnerness is that it gives projected events, not events that were ever detailed. I..e the canon basically stopped in the summer of 2001 - except for a couple of isolated Challenge magazine articles what happens past July of 2001 is pretty much up in the air.

And 2300AD while a good guide is not necessary the canon per se because so many events (like say the return of the forces in Kenya, the RDF and Korea home as organized units happening or the retaking of California and Arizona and New Mexico from the Mexicans or whatever) were never detailed.

And since there was no story bible that anyone associated with GDW ever produced saying what was about to happen besides Frank Frey's notes on Korea and what Howling Wildnerness says which a lot of people dispute, apparently even inside GDW itself if you look at all the contradictions, then the canon is very malleable as to what will happen after mid 2001.

(i.e. Satellite down is in Feb 2001, Kidnapped early summer 2001 and then it all stops in the US)

Oh and since Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness are by the same guy thats why I group them together as having the same issues

[Legbreaker]

Yes, the vehicle in question was eventually displayed at Fort Sill, but that could have been YEARS later, after the war was well and truly over and the situation at home had stabilised.

I'm glad you can see that the destruction of 90th Corps as a fighting unit does not automatically mean the 49th was also destroyed. As of 01APR01 the 49th still had a respectable strength of 1200 men and 5 tanks and that's more than many Soviet Divisions and even a number of US Divisions too!

As for the US 5th ID, there's 60 US soldiers held in temporary prison arrangements in Zdunska Wola alone. That obviously can't be the only place they're held. Also, given the absolute pasting the 1st Brigade dished out to the Sov 124th Division, which incidentally was on the route the withdrawal of the 5th was to take, it would seem logical that a substantial portion of those US troops made it into the forest to the south, even if it was on foot.

Additionally, even if only a few hundred US soldiers made it out, and don't forget the 5th started out with 3,000 men and 42 MBTs (plus artillery, APCs, IFVs) that still makes them just as large, or even larger than a number of Pact Divisions. Sure they're disorganised and spread out, but they're not dead. The unit is destroyed as a fighting unit, but they're not all dead. The unit still exists, if only on paper. Some of their manpower and heavy equipment still exists, why else can a PC group just starting out roll up an M1 tank for a vehicle? All that group needs to do is link up with a few other groups just like them and they've got a company. A few more and they've got a battalion. (Admittedly that's unlikely to occur while on the run behind enemy lines).

I too have played in games where stragglers were picked up, prisoners rescued, hospitals liberated and a group of over a hundred gathered, and I'm certain we're not alone in that experience. Given that each PC group isn't exactly scouring the region for people and for the most part are probably avoiding contact and discovery, that would seem to imply there's plenty more out there.

The canon material does hang together if you take the time and look at it with an open mind. Some of it may not make perfect sense right away, such as why the Soviets invaded Alaska, but taken in context with everything else happening at the same time, possible and plausible explanations start to appear. As my signature says, nothing happens in isolation.

Open your mind to the possibilities. Don't dismiss things just because the answers don't immediately reach out and slap you in the face.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I have a dim, distant and therefore unreliable recollection of reading somewhere that in RL the Intrepid was not an easy vessel to move from it's T2K era mooring location because it was effectively silted in place. That would add an additional level of difficulty to any refurbishment of the vessel as a mobile platform, because if it's immobile due to its keel being glued to the river bottom by megatons of mud it won't easily become mobile again (obviously), and because any refurbishment on the scale required for a ship that long out of active service would need to be undertaken at an appropriate facility, not at a tourist dock in downtown Manhattan. Getting it to an overhaul facility would first require a large-scale, time and resource consuming dredging operation. That's a lot of preliminary work for a time-critical, resource-heavy project which carried a risk of becoming unfeasible or irrelevant over the time scale of the war.

Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.

My thinking was more postwar, during reconstruction, when a rebuilding US would have more time to devote to such things rather than "Get it out and fix it and get it into the war", but otherwise, spot-on.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.

They were right to be worried, and it took a lot more than a "few gentle pulls". The first time they tried to move her with seven tugboats, the Coast Guard shut them down after she moved only 15 feet before the propellers dug into the silt. Seems the 24 years worth of silt around the hull and propellers had locked her in pretty tight. It took removing 39,000 cubic yards of silt over three weeks of dredging to get her out, this time with five tugboats. And that was after they'd already dredged out 16,000 cubic yards prior to the first attempt to move her.

Now that was in 2006. I'm sure it wasn't so bad in the mid-90s, but I'm not sure it would be easy either.

Some sources indicate that she no longer has her engines, but this is apparently contrary to US Navy policy. Beyond brief mention in news articles, I couldn't find anything concrete either way.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by JHart

Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.

I don't know about the rest of the carriers as museums by the Lex is sunk in about 20 plus feet of mud, and was gutted well before becoming the museum. UNLESS they did a major yard on her, she wouldn't do much good. Also she is about a mile or two from the closest refinery on refinery row. While not physically damaged too badly I could she her listed in the mud and such an angle that it would probably not get moved post attack. No tugs big enough there to do the job for one thing, and major dredging to get her out of the muck. All that was brough in from NOLA IIRC when they planted her. I was living there at the time and it was big local news.

[Graebarde]

IIRC the 49th was in Chicago awaiting shipment overseas when TDM came? For the life of me I can NOT see a heavy division shipping out of a Great Lakes port for ANY reason. There are too many other ports available. More of the genius of the designers for what ever the reason. 49th would have departed Corpus Christi, Beaumont and Galveston, just like the 1st Cav, 2nd Armor and 3rd Cav. WITH a sizeable escort IMO.

But if they had not been deployed by TDM (which I still find hard to comprehend keeping a heavy in the states while sending lights to NATO) and were in Chicago, and word arrived the Mexican's had invaded, I would see the whole division hitting the road for Texas.. MilGov--CivGov be damned, Texas is being invaded. As for personnel drifting off/deserting. The going to their home might be plausable, but as is pointed out, it would probably be whole units from ie Alice, since a few leaving would have to face the rest evenutally.. you have deserted your neighbors when you desert the unit.

Now on another side of the picture. My son was in the TxANG in '90, having just returned from a 4-year RA kick as an Airborne Ranger, and cherry popping in Panama. He was in a local battalion in South Texas. He would come home from drills so damn mad it was almost funny if it wasn't so serious. They went to Falfurias training area... with NO water to speak of, IN the summer. Had guys going tits up from heat. The leadership was abismal in that unit. The same unit was tagged to go to Honduras (iirc) for a training mission.. it took volunteers from three battalions to get one capable of going... mostly due to failing the drug test. When Iraq invaded Kuwait he reupped in the regulars, "I'm not going to war with those idiots, they'll just get somebody killed, namely themselves."

Yes they are Texians.. and generally are a good bunch of soldiers, but there are weak points in every unit.

[Legbreaker]

And 91/92 seems a bit too early to see the war coming, especially in V1.0 where the war in the west wasn't even thought of until after the secret German talks in June 1996.

[Olefin]

I have the opposite viewpoint Leg - and by the way the Russians may not be in San Antonio anymore - if you read Lone Star, Red Star they are clearly about to pull out and head home - in fact by mid 2001 they may be gone or so badly damaged by local guerrillas that they are no longer the threat that they were.

And if that oil and avgas in that module goes to MilGov - since they are the only force in the area that has the planes and helos that can make use of it - then its an even more powerful reason that the 49th would stay together. And I could see the Texans doing it, telling MilGov that you get the oil and avgas in exchange for letting us (i.e. the Texans) take care of our own affairs afterward.

I.e. its mid 2001, the oil from Gulf 40 is now giving MilGov the avgas and other fuel they need to have air support for another offensive into Texas and the 49th wants to go home and be that offensive. Given that information and the fact that the Texian forces arent exactly popular in most of Texas I would see them be the leading force behind that move.

Given the state of MilGov that kind of deal could easily be made. But not with a 49th that is falling apart.

Now that doesnt mean they stay with MilGov after they make that move - but they can do a lot more damage and reconquer a lot more territory together than piecemeal. And the 49th, intact and forming the basis of the new Texan Army, would explain how Texas becomes an independent nation.

Plus keep in mind that those tanks they have make them superior to any remaining Mexican unit in Texas. They could drive most of the Mexican units out of Texas considering the sorry state most of the Mexican forces are in by mid 2001.

There is no way that most of the 49th just gives up and goes home and lets Mexico and the Russians (especially the Russians) keep hold of large areas of Texas. Sorry its a game but it has to be realistic and thats not realistic. The only way those guys are going home is with Mexican and Soviet forces running for the border.

Oh and the 90th Corps could still thus fall apart afterward - i.e. the 49th heads south into Texas, does its job and then says its part of the new Texas Army and not the US - and without them there isnt much left of 90th Corps to hold Oklahoma against anyone else.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Yes they are Texians.. and generally are a good bunch of soldiers, but there are weak points in every unit.

And lets hope most of them are dead by 2000....

Originally Posted by Olefin

I have the opposite viewpoint Leg - and by the way the Russians may not be in San Antonio anymore - if you read Lone Star, Red Star they are clearly about to pull out and head home - in fact by mid 2001 they may be gone or so badly damaged by local guerrillas that they are no longer the threat that they were.

Small flaw with that logic - Howling Wilderness lists troop numbers as of 01APR01, just a touch before Mid 2001.
Now admittedly Red Star, Lone Star is supposed to occur in late November 2000, however communications post nuke aren't what they used to be and a walk to the next hilltop is considered a long distance road trip. News travels slowly in that environment, and isn't necessarily correct either. Just look at any of the rumour tables in any of the books for examples of just how screwed up information can be.

Note also that just because the Soviets have a chance of capturing an almost spent offshore oil well, doesn't mean they actually will. In fact since the whole thing sets a group of PCs up as major players, chances are they don't and therefore get stuck in San Antonio. Even if they do, it'll be months before there's enough oil available and a ship found, time in which the components of the 49th Division can fall apart and head home.

While even one Soviet or Mexican soldier remains in Texas, will any Texan rest?
Or will they want to drive them out?

[Olefin]

Thats why I am rejecting the Howling Wilderness version of the 49th - given the events of Red Star, Lone Star and the weakness of both the Mexicans and the Soviets if they headed home it would be as a body - and as you said there isnt much that MilGov could do to stop them.

One idea could be that the 49th breaks up - and what you have left is what stays loyal to MilGov while the rest heads south and joins with the Grange forces to become the new Texan Army. So you have a US Army 49th Mech and you have a Texan Army 49th division.

It would also explain why the 49th in the Soviet Vehicle Guide is still headquartered at Fort Sill in OK. That is the part that stayed loyal and stayed with the US and thus is now in OK, while the rest went south and joined up with the new Texas nation.

That way you get both - i.e. you dont have a wasting away of the 49th that makes no sense given the situation in Texas but you also have the HW numbers applying only to MilGov forces. HW doesnt have Texan Army forces after all - and even if its not mentioned in canon so what? A lot of things as we have already found arent mentioned in canon - like where the 35 tanks came from that showed up in Iran in US forces in Jan 2001.

otherwise losing that many tanks to desertion or breakdowns in such a short time - sorry but not believeable

losing them because they go off in a group, leaving MilGov service as a unit and start to liberate Texas from the Mexicans and Russians on their own - yes that makes a lot of sense

[dragoon500ly]

just did a little trip to the Alabama in Mobile Bay. That ship is in no condition for any action whatsoever.

The engine room is sealed off and would require several months of effort to restore to service according to our guide.

All of the armament is demilled, breechblocks either welded in place, or missing altogether.

The barbette supporting the number 2 16-inch turret has been extensively modified for tours, A whopping great hole has been cut into the armor to allow easy access.

And the ship is heavily silted in place.

[Olefin]

There were USN ships that would have joined the fleet after the heavy losses early in 1997 - if you look at what was actually under construction you have at the least:

Arleigh Burke destroyers- Hopper, Ross, The Sullivans for sure - all completed after the dates for the big battles against the Soviets so they would have joined with what was left

McFaul is only possible if they speed her up - Ingalls gets nuked in Nov 1997 but Mahan, Decatur, Donald Cook and possibly Higgins are possible out of Bath before the electricity and fuel situation shut them down in late 1998, early 1999 - Mahan for sure

Amphib Warfare Ships - USS Bataan - Sept 1997 (Bonhomme Richard gets nuked along with Ingalls)

Submarines - USS Seawolf - 19 July 97 (this assumes they had the long down time in our reality)

Ballistic submarines - USS Louisiana - last of the Ohio's - commissioned Sept 6, 1997

Also possibly more Los Angeles class if they made more of them (Version 1) where the Cold War never ended - but not for V2.2

CVN - possibly USS Harry S Truman if they rushed her and got her out of Newport News before the area was nuked

not a lot of ships but a lot more capable than bringing ships in the boneyard or Reserve Fleet back into service - and added together you have the makings of a carrier battle group

[Legbreaker]

Have to keep in mind the Soviets would be doing the same thing, and possibly even on a larger scale given they'd been fighting longer.
By mid 2000 it's conceivable this greater production on all sides would have been cancelled out through further small scale battles sinking and badly damaging the new vessels (not to mention sabotage, lack of trained crew, limited supplies of munitions, etc).
So regardless of a possibly accelerated production, the situation as stated in T2K really doesn't need to be altered.