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  #31  
Old 08-03-2009, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Targan View Post
I reckon a viable alternative to wood for the sabots would be something along the lines of paper mache. Much easier and quicker to produce and much lighter (always a good feature in a sabot). Expanding foam or carved styrofoam would be even better but not necessarilly as easy to find the raw materials.
I would think discarded styrofoam or styrofoam from wrecked stuff would be blowing around all over the T2K world. You can find it all over even now.
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  #32  
Old 08-03-2009, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
I would think discarded styrofoam or styrofoam from wrecked stuff would be blowing around all over the T2K world. You can find it all over even now.
I'd imagine that a styrofoam sabot will result in a POOF of white flakes out the end of the tube, and a clunking sound as the round slides back to the bottom

Wouldn't you need something more substantial? Maybe styrofoam, with a metal plate around the bottom so the charges don't disintegrate the sabot?

Edit: Duh, this was already covered, and I missed the posts DOH

Last edited by cavtroop; 08-03-2009 at 08:45 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-03-2009, 09:25 PM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
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Originally Posted by Caradhras View Post
As a complete armchair military man... 0 actual service..

Can anyone tell me how a single person could man an 81mm - would it just take 3x as long? Rules have fire rate of 1 per round.

Also, the smaller 60mm, would that be easier and therefore not x3 or ?

It's just I have a player in my campaign that loves to get a mortar set up and fire it solo and I dont know how difficult this would be.
According to tw2.2 rules a 81mm mortar has a crew of 3 for ROF 1 per round (I think that it would be technically 1 per action but I'm not letting high init characters shoot large guns faster). Also, somewhere in the combat section is states that crewed weapons add 1 action (or maybe it's round, can't remember) to reload time for each crew member lost.
i.e.
Crew 3 = Reload 0
Crew 2 = Reload 1
Crew 1 = Reload 2, so 1 round fired every 3 rounds instead of 1, but I'd agree with the comments that if the rounds were all preped and ready to go, maybe this could be 1 round every 2.
As an aside, and in general for any gun, I also put in place extra ready actions if the ammo isn't handy, for e.g. magazines in backpacks and mg belts which are not laid out or in a box ready to use. In general I let reloading a "box" fed weapon as 1 action as per the rules, but I make reloading and returning the spent magazine to webbing or a pocket as 1 reload + 1 ready action (just so that players can lose mags when on the run etc).

A 60mm mortar has crew 3 and ROF 1 in v2.2. In v1 it has ROF 2, so I've let 60mm mortars fire 2 shots per round indirect if crewed by 4.

Thanks for the discussion on sabots; I found a website that talks about firing 60mm bombs from a 81mm USA mortar using wooden sabots. It mentioned that they can be re-used about 10 times, if found. The round comes bundled in the wood case, so all the rounds are pre prepared.
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  #34  
Old 08-03-2009, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by leonpoi View Post
According to tw2.2 rules a 81mm mortar has a crew of 3 for ROF 1 per round (I think that it would be technically 1 per action but I'm not letting high init characters shoot large guns faster). Also, somewhere in the combat section is states that crewed weapons add 1 action (or maybe it's round, can't remember) to reload time for each crew member lost.
i.e.
Crew 3 = Reload 0
Crew 2 = Reload 1
Crew 1 = Reload 2, so 1 round fired every 3 rounds instead of 1, but I'd agree with the comments that if the rounds were all preped and ready to go, maybe this could be 1 round every 2.
As an aside, and in general for any gun, I also put in place extra ready actions if the ammo isn't handy, for e.g. magazines in backpacks and mg belts which are not laid out or in a box ready to use. In general I let reloading a "box" fed weapon as 1 action as per the rules, but I make reloading and returning the spent magazine to webbing or a pocket as 1 reload + 1 ready action (just so that players can lose mags when on the run etc).

A 60mm mortar has crew 3 and ROF 1 in v2.2. In v1 it has ROF 2, so I've let 60mm mortars fire 2 shots per round indirect if crewed by 4.

Thanks for the discussion on sabots; I found a website that talks about firing 60mm bombs from a 81mm USA mortar using wooden sabots. It mentioned that they can be re-used about 10 times, if found. The round comes bundled in the wood case, so all the rounds are pre prepared.
I would add that one man crewing an 81mm mortar would count as hard work for that period. And tell your player to have fun setting up the aiming posts...he'll have a hell of a time trying it, and without properly-set aiming posts (or a Mortar Fire Computer with a GPS unit), I'd multiply deviation by 5, above any normal amount of deviation.
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  #35  
Old 08-04-2009, 02:49 AM
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I wonder how the Vasilek auto mortar works? Gravity fed ammunition feed, spring-fed or some kind of mechanical feed? Does some sort of autoloader arrangement fit charges to the rounds before firing, are the charges pre-set or do Vasilek rounds only have one charge setting? Questions, questions...
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  #36  
Old 08-04-2009, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Targan View Post
I wonder how the Vasilek auto mortar works? Gravity fed ammunition feed, spring-fed or some kind of mechanical feed? Does some sort of autoloader arrangement fit charges to the rounds before firing, are the charges pre-set or do Vasilek rounds only have one charge setting? Questions, questions...
I don't know how the charges are set, but it's fed from a magazine (basically, spring-loaded) from the right side.
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  #37  
Old 08-04-2009, 03:41 AM
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http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/...inomet/t/27217
That might help (if you can speak the language).
The first picture, while unclear, appears to show charges around the tail as is found with conventional mortars.
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  #38  
Old 08-04-2009, 07:22 PM
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The Vasilek looks like it takes normal charges from the powder bags near the fins. They just precharge em before loading them into the magazine.

We also did it with the 60mm when we drop fired it. I forget it has beleive it or not been 20 years and a couple days so I am allowed

But the idea of the 60mm drop firing is, for tactical line of sight firing.

The small baseplate is carried locked, and when needed the gunner slams the gun down, uses the elevation guide and drops rounds down the tube firing using the trigger. The charges on the rounds are not adjusted!

As for hard work manning an 81mm.

Only if it is humbed. Otherwise once the gun is set up you just have to make sure the gun is adjusted back to zero which is usualy a small adjustment <the manual give us like 20 seconds, most do it in about 9 to 12> Again, ammo prep can be done before the fire mission, most fire missions even a fire for effect is usualy about 3 rounds per tube.

And one man can move a 81mm by himself, although, he would not be very fast. A 60mm our displacement method was grabe the whole system and run away a few 100m, the original shoot and scoot.
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  #39  
Old 08-08-2009, 09:37 PM
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The answer seems to be fairly obvious to me, but on behalf of all those with no experience, I ask the following of our mortar and indirect fire trained members.

How accurate would an indirect weapon be if fired from a moving platform such as a slow moving vehicle or boat without the benefit of various high tech guidance systems?
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  #40  
Old 08-08-2009, 10:43 PM
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The answer seems to be fairly obvious to me, but on behalf of all those with no experience, I ask the following of our mortar and indirect fire trained members.

How accurate would an indirect weapon be if fired from a moving platform such as a slow moving vehicle or boat without the benefit of various high tech guidance systems?
They do make mortars for that sort of application -- they are generally breech-loaded mortars that can be fired in direct and indirect fire modes, and often called gun/mortars. But while they can be fired with good accuracy in direct fire, indirect fire is inherently less accurate; I can't imagine getting any sort of accuracy trying to conduct indirect fire while moving. Not even the most modern SP howitzers are capable of that trick -- they may fire from a quick halt, but not while moving.

That said, light mortars were used from boats in Vietnam. It would depend on the speed, but I'd multiply the deviation somewhere from x2 to x10. Most of those boats still made a quick stop on a beach or riverbank to fire the mortar.

Hmmm...the mortar's moving and the target may or may not be moving. It sounds like a recipe for making your spotter insane.
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  #41  
Old 08-08-2009, 11:55 PM
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The mortar and set up you have I am familiar with

At a slow speed, in theory I think I could do it!

If its used in the direct role, piece of cake!

In the indirect fire role, sight it in, and if the movement is not so fast and you take into account the movement, and more or less lead the target you could be on target, remember a mortar is an area weapon, and if the rounds land close to the target it counts just like horseshoes and handgrenades. A moving platform would possibly act as a traverse fire mission, where the rounds land more or less in the line of travel, going down river, keeping in mind that a minor distance on the sight will be a greater distance down range, so, firing at a rapid but steady and unhuried pace could give a similiar effect as a traverse mission. Again, this is theory and oh to be on a gunline again to test it, as it does sound interesting.
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  #42  
Old 08-09-2009, 12:11 AM
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At a slow speed, in theory I think I could do it!

If its used in the direct role, piece of cake!
If the mortar gunner can actually see his target, he could also do a direct lay -- that would be much easier than standard indirect fire. (In direct lay, you are sort of using your mortar sight to aim at the target; direct lay is tricky, takes a good gunner, and you are still going to have deviation, but it's not as much deviation as standard indirect fire and the gunner can function as his own spotter. The downside is that if you can see your target, the enemy can probably see you...)
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  #43  
Old 08-09-2009, 12:29 AM
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If the mortar gunner can actually see his target, he could also do a direct lay -- that would be much easier than standard indirect fire. (In direct lay, you are sort of using your mortar sight to aim at the target; direct lay is tricky, takes a good gunner, and you are still going to have deviation, but it's not as much deviation as standard indirect fire and the gunner can function as his own spotter. The downside is that if you can see your target, the enemy can probably see you...)
Thats it! Direct lay! I was thinking boresighting, direct lay, thats the term I was trying to come up with the last several days. And that is how I would do it. Like I said, in theory it could work and the results would be like a traverse fire mission along the route of travel of the vehicle.

Of course the issue I would worry about is stability especialy after the first round throwing off the gun with the rocking, this could make following round go wild, as well as strong waves, sharp turns and evasive manuvers, again, these could toss the rounds to go way off!

However, the precident does exist of firing mortars and artillery from boats, this was done durring the British attack on Ft. McHenry which inspired Francis Scott Key to pen "The Star Spangled Banner." As were mortar barges and rocket ships common, and in the amphibious landings in Europe and the Pacific many vessels had 105 and 75mm howitzers firing on them or mortars and of course rockets. The Rangers attacking Pt Du Hoc fired mortars from their craft to launch the ropes and ladders which they scaled the heights with. And I seem to recall some units in the Delta of Vietnam had 105s on LSTs or barges firing, so it is entirely possible.

Again, having been a mortar magot once upon a time, the idea is something I would love to test.
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  #44  
Old 08-09-2009, 01:39 AM
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I would say impossible (for indirect). You almost never drive in a straight line, and once you've turned just a little, that's it. It its a few kilometers away, the bomb's deviation is magnified sooo much, they're be no point in even trying.

If it were possible, it would definitely be the norm.
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  #45  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:55 AM
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Assume the mortar is located on a boat and travelling through this sort of environment in predawn without sonar equipment to prevent grounding.
The boat would need to make sudden turns and stops without more than a few seconds warning.
The mortar crew also cannot see the target area although do have a general idea of it's location (as they should anyway).
Only a handful of rounds are available but an FO is on hand with an unobstructed view of the target area.

Given those details, how likely is it for even one round to strike the target zone?

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  #46  
Old 08-09-2009, 12:18 PM
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Like I said, all the guncrew needs is distance and direction, then it is up to their data, they can dial in the gun and make sure it is dialed or sighted right. After that it is up to the winds, the gunsite being half a mil off or even a quarter or even the recoil of the gun as it fires as well as the round how well it leaves the barrel, how heavy, how well balanced how old, the charges did they burn right those are all some of the factors that can cause the unknown to happen.

But, they can do everything on their end, get it sighted in and the direction and make sure the data is right on their end. I am figuring they will aim for point X and firing from a moving target going at about 6 knotts they may hit target X plus 30m in the direction they are traveling, they may be a little closer, it depends on how fast their guncrew is. And then the rocking of the vessel from recoil may cause a checkerboard pattern of impacts, firing on the uproll the roads go inland and on the down they land closer, which may be cool since you could cover the target area nicely depending on the size of the round.

As for being common, they do the math for modern naval gunnery so it can be done, it just takes a good amount of math.

Remember, a mortar is not a point target weapon, can you hit the target directly SURE! I have done it many many times back in the day. But it is an area target weapon so if the round lands within the casualty radius area then it is considered a hit.
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