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| View Poll Results: What's the Coolest Twilight War Era Camouflage | |||
| U.S. Woodland Pattern BDU |
   
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17 | 24.29% |
| German Flecktarn |
  
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24 | 34.29% |
| British DPM |
  
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17 | 24.29% |
| Canadian CADPAT* |
  
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9 | 12.86% |
| Danish Pattern 84 Flecktarn |
  
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1 | 1.43% |
| Polish Pantera |
  
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1 | 1.43% |
| Soviet Camo** |
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4 | 5.71% |
| Other (Please Specify in Post) |
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14 | 20.00% |
| Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#31
05-14-2010, 02:41 PM
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I thought the British had already given the nod to the MTP pattern, which is basically DPM reworked by Crye using a multicam color palette.
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#33
05-15-2010, 02:46 AM
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#34
05-15-2010, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
PECOC= Peacock  I love you guys
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#35
05-16-2010, 01:22 AM
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Honestly it quite silly thing. Going back to time a when Armies were had gaudy uniforms so opposing sides could recognize whose troops were whose on smoky battle fields up to a point between 1860 to sometime after the start of the World War I and trench warfare on the western front.
Even then once a base uniform had been established, it has been acknowledge that no matter how it may fill the needs of most day to day operations, that members with different MOS and in different theaters of operation will have to be issued other kit. Also the gucci add on equipment that some units may allow their troops to add to. I am not to sure on this one best pattern that fits everywhere and I do understand the one desire to make uniformity seem true, but before the current operation in Middle East by the US and British especially. I remember watching video of units from the states and European bases, that were in the field mixing the woodland camo with various states of desert camo, due to the fact there weren't enough of any desert pattern to go around in the US inventories. Or the fact that most of the TA-50 gear they had was still olive drab green. I do remember that the Molle system that the US Army had been testing as far back as 1985, but due to the amount of TA-50 gear in war-time stocks, it wasn't until well in the 1990s and some cases still in 2000 and 2001 before some units had switch to the new system. REMF and the Quartermaster/Supply units seem to think they should have the best of the best gear above other who might actually have need of the equipment. In fact, there some Quartermaster/Supply Officer/Sergeants who felt, since it was their responsibility for accountability the best way to exercise this was to sit on the gear. As for the personal purchase of gear. While in the 82nd, being issued that was barely serviceable, but look good, many of us went out purchase as much what we could that the various outlet surplus stores. In many case, the purchased items include butt pack that you weren't issued due to the fact that didn't have any left to issue from central supply on base, or extra set so one could be kept for display and the other was field gear. Then you look at the British system back then, it seem every Regiment of the Army had some twist they added to the basic uniform, whether if it for functionality purposes or for like in the Para and SAS where they had special smock help distinguish them in barracks and everyone to have one or the other for when they went to the field. In most military Tankers and Aviation seem to have overall/flight suits to some extent. I so agree that with the way the British attitude is order the stuff in batches to add small improvement into the gear as units rotate in. That way if something doesn't work, in one or two rotation the issues can be corrected. It also take the control from the Supply people who seem to think that silly Infantry personnel don't need what is being entrusted to them to get to them. Honestly, there will never be one best outfit that fit all. Take Iraq and Afghanistan. What works in Iraq may not work well Afghanistan and vice versa. Form what I hear even something that works well in on portion of the either country doesn't really work to well in other parts. Well doh, the old woodland pattern in the US inventory worked very well at some bases in the US, Korea, and Europe and other place you stuck out like sore thumb no matter how much you work you camo outpost...
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#36
05-16-2010, 04:00 AM
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We still have storemen who think that "stores are for storing" and are extremely difficult to get things out of. On the other hand, most that I have encountered have been very good with regards to supplying things. The stacker at my unit was particularly helpful, if you found something you thought would be useful and you could find the NSN for it, he'd have a go at ordering it in (cue mini-Maglites, Leathermans and the handy folding medical pouch for all). He was something of a master at creative accounting though.
As for universal camouflage, certainly one of the problems British troops in Helmand are facing is that an individual patrol will likely pass through areas which require both kinds of camouflage, DPM and desert, several times, hence the attempted introduction of a camouflage pattern that is suitable for both environments, though DPM and desert clothing is also still issued (and frequently worn mixed to try and deal with the problem). And yes, Britain did invade Iraq with shortages of desert clothing, body armour, boots, batteries, ammunition, NBC kit, and various other handy things. The resulting deaths are probably why we seem to be paying so much attention to kitting these days. EDIT: Another proposal from the PECOC programme is to retain brand names on equipment, because most soldiers know what kind of quality they can expect from a particular brand, and also it gives the manufacturer more incentive to produce high quality equipment, as everyone will know exactly who made an item. Last edited by perardua; 05-16-2010 at 04:15 AM.
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#37
05-16-2010, 06:18 AM
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to complicate the discussion further..
I see you guys discuss patterns - but what about materials ?
Most armies issue some sort of trilaminate "plastic" all weather kit to their troops as well as some sort of poly-cotton garments. It is a well known fact that the one has better water resistance and the other has breathability and durability . Any thoughts ? I am undecided my self -both have their uses -but the goretex one shreds essily when doing drills and staying low on the advance..
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#38
05-16-2010, 10:49 AM
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Wearing Gore-Tex in the British forces, at least amongst combat types, is regarded somewhat unfavourably, unless you're doing something non-tactical like a range. There are two main reasons for this - one being that it rustles (not really an issue in my opinion, if it's raining hard enough to wear Gore-Tex, you're not going to be heard too easily), and the second being that it is gets you hot quickly, especially as the normal recommendation is to wear it under your combats to cut down on 'noise' and to maintain access to all the kit in your smock and trouser pockets.
Personally, I don't tend to wear waterproofs on exercise or ops (mainly because it never rained when I was there) except sometimes on stag, as invariably by the time you've stopped to get it out and put it all on, the rain has stopped. That, and when you inevitably get bumped by the opfor and start throwing yourself at the ground, crawling about and using streams as cover, you get soaked anyway. Anyway, skin's pretty waterproof and CS95s dry quickly enough. Best confined to base use, in my opinion.
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#39
05-16-2010, 12:20 PM
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I've personally never liked, and still don't like, rain gear. This goes from when I was a kid and we had those stupid yellow rubber raincoats (which somehow, by the end of the day, I would have "lost somewhere" -- my mother quickly stopped buying them for me), to the Army and today -- I don't even use an umbrella.
However, when it was rainy in the Army in the field, I always bought my own socks that were water repellent to an extent, and I always bought my own boots that, while they looked like regular issue boots, were also more weatherproof. I could be soaked all over, but when my feet got wet and soaked inside by footwear, I was miserable.
__________________
War is the absence of reason. But then, life often demands unreasonable responses. - Lucian Soulban, Warhammer 40000 series, Necromunda Book 6, Fleshworks Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#40
05-16-2010, 12:45 PM
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Well, boots are an entirely different matter, and the most important thing for an infantryman. We recently started getting issued Gore-Tex lined boots that are a lot more waterproof than the older issue ones, but the issue coincided with a week of live firing in knee deep snow, which generally meant falling in concealed streams a lot and having your boots fill with water. Turns out Gore-Tex boots take forever to dry, so by the second or third day most of us were back to leather boots and leaving a bag of dry socks by the range hut.
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#41
05-17-2010, 06:01 AM
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LOL... Yeah I hear there Paul. I think, may of the Airborne Infantry types are the same. In the end you are going to get wet anyways in the field. Even with the poncho and liner the best use for it was for use at night for sleeping under the poncho and using the liner over the sleep bag unless it was like in mid winter, the the sleep bag was brought out due to you never knew when it may snow out in the field at Bragg...lol
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#42
05-17-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
 I see the Russians use blue in one of there camo patterns(Gorod). Personally I think Blue stands out to much, but it does look cool.
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#43
10-29-2010, 01:19 PM
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Has anyone seen the new Chinese Digital Camo?
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#44
10-29-2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
__________________
War is the absence of reason. But then, life often demands unreasonable responses. - Lucian Soulban, Warhammer 40000 series, Necromunda Book 6, Fleshworks Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#45
10-29-2010, 03:33 PM
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Hmmmm, the government doing something in an intelligent, rational manner...
NOPE! That will never happen!!!! 
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#46
10-29-2010, 07:15 PM
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#47
10-29-2010, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#48
10-29-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
__________________
War is the absence of reason. But then, life often demands unreasonable responses. - Lucian Soulban, Warhammer 40000 series, Necromunda Book 6, Fleshworks Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#49
11-08-2010, 08:57 PM
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My vote is for the woodland pattern with a qualifier; the ripstop BDUs, not the cotton ones. When the cotton fades you stick out like a turd in a punchbowl.
__________________
"You can't hear me? THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE FIRING A MORTAR ON YOUR END AND ITS LANDING HERE ON OUR END!!.........I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE GERMANS ARE, WE'RE HERE!!!!!!"
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#50
11-08-2010, 10:58 PM
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I voted "other" but can't remember why. It was probably for something unconventional like tiger stripe. I had a pair of awesome nylon/cotton ripstop BDU type pants I got from USCAV back in the late 80's or early 90's that were in a disrupted dark grid pattern called something like French Night Desert, but I can't find any evidence that such a thing ever existed. Closest I can find online is those shitty US Army Gulf War I anti-NVG "overwhites" that didn't actually work, but these were actually cut like regular BDU trousers. They kicked ass. But as far as a pattern actually expected to be encountered in the timeline, I'd probably go with the German Flecktarn.
__________________
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#51
11-09-2010, 03:26 AM
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I owned some pre-CADPAT green Canadian Forces combat fatigue pants (aka "combats") made from cotton. They were the most comfortable thing I owned and everyone I talked to in the CF (Reg Force or Militia) loved them too because they were extremely soft and comfortable. Much more so the rip-stop US BDUs, but that was the problem, they weren't nearly as durable and eventually came apart. (I hear they needed to be repaired/replaced after every other exercise, almost.) Still, while they lasted, they were as comfortable as pyjamas, and they didn't even fade too badly over time (they looked a lot like Israeli fatigues except a little more green).
I hear the CADPAT combats are much more durable but less comfortable. I also have a nylon camouflage Canadian Airborne smock somewhere, with a unique pattern somewhat like British DPM but lighter with less brown. It was a neat pattern, issued to airborne commandos because the CF combats before CADPAT were not camouflaged. Tony
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#52
11-09-2010, 03:51 AM
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Fading was a sought after quality in our Auscams as firstly it was a sign of experience (and who wants to look like a newbie) and secondly it meant they matched the predominately drought conditions we usually operated in - bright new colours tended to stick out more when the trees, bushes and grass were all parched.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#53
11-09-2010, 04:15 AM
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I had a similar attitude towards woodland BDUs back in the day -- new, they stood out really badly in fields, scrub, autumn foliage colors and such. Some fading made them work a lot better, and I developed the theory that when senior NCOs started getting very negative in garrison they were just about ideal for field use.
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#54
11-09-2010, 09:40 AM
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That's part of why you had field BDUs and garrison BDUs.
__________________
War is the absence of reason. But then, life often demands unreasonable responses. - Lucian Soulban, Warhammer 40000 series, Necromunda Book 6, Fleshworks Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#55
11-09-2010, 11:50 AM
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There was a Swiss camo pattern that had a lot of red in it, an looked a little like flames or long grass with black and other colors interwoven... I've been looking for a picture of it for years... i used it as the camo pattern for body armor in a 2300ad game after i had saw it in a US Cavalry catalog when i was in the navy (1989-1994).
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#56
11-09-2010, 01:54 PM
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Well, saw a strange camo outfit in, of all the werid places, the local mall. I must admit, pink, black and white was a rather odd combo, but she looked good in it!
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#57
11-09-2010, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
 Commonly called Alpenflage or Leibermuster by collectors, proper name appears to be Kampfanzug 57 or Tarnanzug 83 (TAZ 83) http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/english.htm http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00014.php
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#58
11-09-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
__________________
War is the absence of reason. But then, life often demands unreasonable responses. - Lucian Soulban, Warhammer 40000 series, Necromunda Book 6, Fleshworks Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#59
11-09-2010, 09:04 PM
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I wish i could find the old artwork i had done with the body armor done in the patterns that I was wanting to get a really good example of it. The colors were red, black, blue-gray, light gray. It was suppose to be used by snipers in industrial areas i think.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#60
11-09-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Given the colours you mentioned, the nearest I can find is this one but it's nothing more than the BDU type pattern done by some US civilian company  Or this one, a Russian design made for their Ministry of Extraordinary Situations (i.e. Emercom - civil defence/emergency response organization)  I can't find any references on the net to an urban/industrial sniper cam with red colours 
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