Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Targan]

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines.

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

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[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

-

And that very much sums up my take on crowdfunding for things like this.
I've dabbled in crowdfunding over the years and when it comes to things like raising funds to, for example, build wells in remote communities or help start community businesses, the overall outcomes are generally positive for the short & long term.

I do appreciate the desire to mitigate risk by cutting out the need to raise capital, take loans or get investors but when it comes to crowdfunding for hobbies and the like, it really does feel sometimes like it's a quick grab for cash and there is no intention of supporting the product for the long term.
For a company like Free League or Clockwork Publishing, I can understand the desire for crowdfunding because even though they are well established they're still small companies and don't make massive profits.

But still, given Free League's track record of a big release at the beginning and very little to no product development/release after a few years, I am concerned that this kickstarter will give them the money they need to push a bunch of product out in the first year and then they will rest on their laurels and do nothing else for this 4th edition (except to rely on fan-made content to keep interest alive). With all the cash they'll be getting from this kickstarter, they don't really have to do much work to keep the company financial for the next couple of years - that's why it concerns me. Will they simply figure "Hey we've done all we have to, lets put our feet up until we come up with some new game" or do they truly intend to develop the T2k setting for a longer term?

[pansarskott]

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by pansarskott

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype

Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

To defend Free League a bit, their Mutant:Year Zero, as called everywhere but Sweden, they have released expansions for them. One box for each major archetype, animal-mutants, robots, non-mutated humans (and mutated humans were the bog standard in the release box). But you do have a point.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

I was more thinking of T:2013.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

I was more thinking of T:2013.

Ah! When you said "earlier editions" I took that to mean 1st & 2nd editions.

[Olefin]

Based on the responses I have received from Tomas I am very concerned that they arent prepared for what is needed for a successful launch of V4. Seems to be that there are too few resources dedicated to the game beyond the initial launch - and saying that new sourcebooks would be 1-2 years or more in the future smacks of a game that is not supported well

Given what is going on now and the fact that every stretch goal has been met to where they need more and more he should be immediately staffing up or switching writers over and getting to work on follow ups.

Notice that there is no date on the updated Black Madonna? If they want this to work it need to be out within a couple of months at most of the initial release - i.e. because campaigns using the new system arent going to just wait around for new material. Or they may already be out of the area in the campaign and its a "too little, too late" kind of thing

And turning down offers from me, Raellus and Leg (or saying that at best they would be fan canon) just smells of improper support. Especially since Raellus and Leg have stuff written that could be turned into V4 very quickly

[Olefin]

And now we get the more expanded story we have wanted

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – UNLOCKED!
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It's interesting to see that the Homeland Hack was included as pretty much a last minute stretch goal and yet they had earlier stated something along the lines of "the game will allow you to start your campaign anywhere in the world".
So... from the look of that, you would not have been able to start anywhere in the world (except Poland or Sweden) but now that a stretch goal has been unlocked (and the hardest to reach stretch goal at that), those rules might actually be included in the game?

Or am I missing something?

[wolffhound79]

maybe its an expansion on information for the world????