Aircraft In 2000

[swaghauler]

The designers of Twilight2000 didn't have a real understanding of fuel or fuel types other than perhaps some small research in their local library. In their defense, the internet didn't really exist when they wrote Twilight2000.

The Issues are;

Methanol alone does NOT have sufficient power to be used as a fuel. It simply lacks energy. It can be used to "cut" alcohol, gas or biodiesel/diesel, which WILL reduce that engine's power. A ratio of 10% methanol to 90% fuel will allow the "stretching" of an existing fuel supply. Cutting more than 20% Methanol into the fuel can result in reliability issues.

Ethanol is stated as having roughly HALF the power of gasoline. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Alcohol actually has MORE POWER than gasoline but it burns hotter and, more importantly, FASTER than gasoline. This faster burn rate contributes to LOWER MILEAGE than gas but there is MORE POWER while you have a fuel supply. This is why Top Fuel Dragsters and performance racers all use an alcohol-based fuel system. The higher temps will cause the catastrophic failure of gaskets and hoses and eventually the piston rings and springs. However, any new vehicle rated for E85 CAN HANDLE alcohol.

The original Gasahol is a 50/50 mix of gas and Ethanol and you will see a significant reduction in MPG (up to 40%) but only a minor reduction in power for ground vehicles. Using Gasahol in Light Aviation IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER! Ethanol is known for water contamination issues and putting it into a carburated aircraft where the pilot controls the fuel flow/mix like a Cessna or Moonie (the two types I'M most familiar with) will probably result in carb stalls or carb intake icing at higher altitudes (where the cold air will gel the fuel and cause the water bound to the Ethanol to form ice crystals in the fuel lines). Power will also be SIGNIFICANTLY reduced compared to the high Octane ratings in AVGAS. Stalls will be common when attempting to maneuver under power, especially at high bank angles where fuel flow may "lean out" due to gravity. Standard High Test ground fuels will fare even worse. As a substitute for AVGAS, certain High Test Gasolines (97+ Octane) can be used with a bottle of special additives BUT it may result in reduced top speed AND altitude ceiling. This additive is commonly found at smaller US airports in order to support private and bush pilots who may fly into places where AVGAS is hard to get. Mixing High Test and Ethanol would be a NO GO in any smart General Aviation pilot's handbook.

The uninformed idea of AVGAS being needed for ALL Aircraft in Twilight2000 also needs to be addressed. This is NOT CORRECT. even the US Army's light aviation (based on the Cessna) is a TURBOPROP aircraft. ALL General Aviation Turboprop aircraft use Jet A fuel. The military turboprops use JP8. This fuel is less explosive and more uniform in its burn rates than AVGAS. In addition, a year before the First Gulf War, the Army started pushing a concept called "One Fuel Forward" where they only used ONE FUEL TYPE for all equipment and vehicles. That fuel was JP8. Yes, we began putting JET FUEL in diesel trucks in 1990. The initial issue was clogged fuel filters because the detergents in the JP8 "washed out" the contaminants from older fuels used before it. The second issue was that not all issued equipment used diesel fuel. The Army still had batches of older equipment that required MOGAS (gasoline). By the time of the Twilight War, diesel use would be "universal" and so would JP8. Any pilot would only need to look as far as the nearest tanker with "prewar" fuel production in it to find JP8 Jet Fuel. Civil aviation (which normally uses Jet A) can use JP8 as well. Fuel really won't be the issue for military aviation that GDW made it out to be.

Another issue is Biodiesel and Diesel being different fuels. The game has diesel engines using alcohol which is a questionable move. The diesel engines should be using Biodiesel made with Ethanol. Contrary to the opinions of an uninformed minority, there is NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy OR power between the two. In fact, most diesels can run on FUEL OIL/HOME HEATING OIL. The fuels we were using in the 4/92nd and 475th prior to the JP8 were diesel in name only. You could lube a chassis with some of it. Virgin Airlines also proved that with sufficient detergents added, Biodiesel CAN BE USED BY JETS. They flew using highly-refined BIOWILLY'S (owned by Willy Nelson) without incident. In addition, most Jet Fuels are just highly refined Kerosene. With the right additives, Kerosene can be used to operate jet or turboprop aircraft. Anyone with Chemistry can formulate those additives.

[pmulcahy11b]

Current experiments mix biodiesel and jet fuel in a 50/50 ratio. It works for takeoff and landing without problems, but there might be a hit in speed, acceleration, and range (the jury is out, and the Air Force and Navy are getting mixed results. Current test aircraft include the C-17, FA-18, and UH-60, with limited experiments with other aircraft.

There are also reportedly such experiments taking place with ground vehicles, primarily with vehicles in Europe, though the US Marines' M1s, AAPV7s, and LAV25s are mentioned. I have not been able to find results. Ground vehicles have also been tested with 100% biodiesel.

In both cases, the biodiesel is derived from algae.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The designers of Twilight2000 didn't have a real understanding of fuel or fuel types other than perhaps some small research in their local library. In their defense, the internet didn't really exist when they wrote Twilight2000.

The Issues are;

Methanol alone does NOT have sufficient power to be used as a fuel. It simply lacks energy. It can be used to "cut" alcohol, gas or biodiesel/diesel, which WILL reduce that engine's power. A ratio of 10% methanol to 90% fuel will allow the "stretching" of an existing fuel supply. Cutting more than 20% Methanol into the fuel can result in reliability issues.

Pure methanol is the fuel used by Champcars, monster trucks, Outlaw racing, and USAC sprint cars. If you watched an Indianapolis 500 between 1965 and 2006, you've watched methanol-fueled cars. High-end methanol has 97% of the energy by mass and 86% of the energy by volume of low-end ethanol, and it's more energetic than wood gas (which is used in cars and was used for Tiger training tanks in WW2), so it's certainly energetic enough. The problem is that it'll eat most of the materials commonly used for seals in fuel systems and engines, so it'll destroy anything that's not specifically designed to use it.

Ethanol is stated as having roughly HALF the power of gasoline. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Alcohol actually has MORE POWER than gasoline but it burns hotter and, more importantly, FASTER than gasoline.

That's not true. Ethanol has an energy content of 26.8 MJ/kg and 21.2 MJ/l. Gasoline is 48.3 and 34.8, respectively. By mass, ethanol has 55% of the energy of gasoline and by volume 61%.

This faster burn rate contributes to LOWER MILEAGE than gas but there is MORE POWER while you have a fuel supply. This is why Top Fuel Dragsters and performance racers all use an alcohol-based fuel system. The higher temps will cause the catastrophic failure of gaskets and hoses and eventually the piston rings and springs. However, any new vehicle rated for E85 CAN HANDLE alcohol.

Top fuel dragsters use 90% nitromethane and 10% methanol. The fuel has a much lower energy density than gasoline, but nitromethane has oxygen in it, and the reduced demand for external air means an engine running nitro can burn 17 times as much fuel per second.

<snip aviation section since I'm not an expert on that>

Another issue is Biodiesel and Diesel being different fuels. The game has diesel engines using alcohol which is a questionable move. The diesel engines should be using Biodiesel made with Ethanol. Contrary to the opinions of an uninformed minority, there is NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy OR power between the two.

This is true, although it appears to be due to the way biodiesel lubricates. It has ~9% less energy than petrodiesel, and the best fuel for efficiency is B40 (40% bio, 60% petro), apparently because that's where the better lubrication of bio and better energy content of petro meet a happy medium.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Nice old thread revisit!

Given what I've picked up in the thread about fuels and so on I'm tempted to put at least some combat A/C back in the skies in my (very noncanonical) Twilight 2000 game should I get it going again. Won't be the in the thousands, but some airstrike capability in the event of an emergency; most of it is to protect what's left of NATO forces still in the western region of Germany and to keep France off-balance.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Purely from the point of view of creating scenarios, having a handful of aircraft flying opens up some opportunities. I'm not thinking so much of PCs getting to use said aircraft (at least, not straight away) but more along the lines of missions in support of aircraft such as the PCs being sent out to: - collect parts/fuel/ammo, locate pilots/crew/mechanics/technicians, rescue downed aircrew, destroy threats to the operation of the aircraft (e.g. AAA, other aircraft), provide early warning of enemy aircraft and so on.

I'm also thinking of the fear factor of both allied and enemy forces who would have to keep an eye on the sky and the potential for worry while they try to identify an approaching aircraft.
Even with the prevalence of ManPADS, SAMs & AAA before the war, they will be, like everything, reduced in overall numbers or be less effective due to lack of ammo, transport or trained personnel or they might be concentrated around important locations (and perhaps the PCs are tasked with plotting the locations of enemy air defences). So rather than having umbrella type coverage, there will be AA coverage in certain areas with the potential for AA being located in areas thought safe - should make any flight into the area a long and twisting flight, probably at low level with the added fear that maybe they'll run into something!

[Olefin]

FYI ethanol has been used for aircraft fuel -

Alcohol, alcohol mixtures, and other alternative fuels may be used experimentally, but alcohol is not permitted in any certified aviation fuel specification.

In Brazil, the Embraer Ipanema EMB-202A is a version of the Ipanema agricultural aircraft with a modified Lycoming IO-540-K1J5 engine so as to be able to run on ethanol.

Other aircraft engines that were modified to run on 100% ethanol were several other types of Lycoming engines (including the Lycoming 235N2C, and Lycoming IO-320 and certain Rotax engines

Thus it can be done - its not as good as jet fuel or avgas but it can be done

[Olefin]

FYI if you are looking for some interesting aircraft for a scenario in the US keep in mind a couple of places

Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation - home based - Winston Salem NC

Both aircraft are fully operational

C-97G
C-54

National Warplane Museum - Geneseo, NY

Multiple aircraft, many of which are operational, including a C-45, a C-47, an Aeronca L-16 and a Ryan Navion.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI if you are looking for some interesting aircraft for a scenario in the US keep in mind a couple of places

Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation - home based - Winston Salem NC

Both aircraft are fully operational

C-97G
C-54

National Warplane Museum - Geneseo, NY

Multiple aircraft, many of which are operational, including a C-45, a C-47, an Aeronca L-16 and a Ryan Navion.

There are a lot of oddball museums that have numerous flyable aircraft. In Red Hook, NY, there's the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, which has flyable aircraft including a Bleriot XI, repro Curtiss Model D, repro 1910 Hanriot, repro Albatros D.Va, repro Caudron G.III, Curtiss Jenny, repro Fokker D.VII, repro Fokker Dr.I, Curtiss Wright Junior CW-1, DeHavilland DH.82 Tiger Moth, New Standard D-25, and repro Ryan NYP (Spirit of St. Louis).

Down in Polk City, FL, Kermit Weeks' collection of aircraft at Fantasy of Flight includes one of two remaining high-wing Stinson Tri-Motors, a B-25J, and a Short Sunderland, all of which are generally in flying condition, as well as a bunch of fighters and a ton of spare parts (last time I was there, he had a dozen or so P-38 engines even though he doesn't own a P-38). I know this one has been mentioned in the past when discussing Central Florida.

Florida also has Valiant Air Command at the TiCo (Titusville-Cocoa) Airport. Right now, their flyable aircraft include a repro Dr.I, a C-47 Skytrain, a B-25J Mitchell, a Twin Mustang, and an OV-10D Bronco.

In Bealeton, VA, there's the Flying Circus Aerodrome, which has at least a half-dozen Stearmans, a couple Waco F trainers, four Piper Cubs, and some aerobatic planes. This might be a bit better for maintainability, since there's commonality of aircraft to allow cannibalizing.

Also in Virginia, but over on the coast at Virginia Beach, is the Military Aviation Museum, with a pair of Fokker D.VII, a bunch of other Fokkers, Halberstadt CL.IV, a repro ME-262, P-40, FG-1D Corsair, P-51D, Bf-109, Hurricane, the only airworthy MiG-3, Spitfire, Yak-3M, repro Fw 190A-8, original Fw 190A-8, the only remaining Polikarpov I-15bis, a 1939 Polikarpov I-16, and a Lend-Lease P-63 Kingcobra. For larger planes, there's a Tante Ju, a B-25, and a PBY Catalina. Almost everything is flyable.

The Air Heritage Museum of Beaver Falls, PA, started out by repairing a damaged B-17G and has a small collection of mostly airworthy planes, with the big ones being a C-123K and a C-47B. They also have a T-28, a T-34, a Cub, and a Funk B-75-L.