Your favourite weapons - Western European

[StainlessSteelCynic]

To go along with the favourite US weapons thread, I figured perhaps we should have a few more such topics, so here's a thread for you to tell us about your favourite Western European weapons.

First and foremost, I love the L1A1 SLR so I'm going to make a joint-claim for my fav Western European weapon, the British L1A1 and the Belgian FN FAL.
Plenty of pics around the net so I reckon everyone knows what they look like by now.

The HK33 follows on as a close second (my love of that rifle probably comes from seeing it in episodes of the British TV series "The Professionals")


In a very close third position would be the Spanish CETME Ameli LMG - it's a mini MG42 that can be disassembled to fit inside a briefcase, what's not to like!

[LT. Ox]

Mine is without a doubt.
Browning square back semi-auto twelve gauge with the 2 and 3/4 or 3" chamber (just reverse the recoil rings), ventilated rib, a modified front sight/ bayonet adapter and a bunch of brass number four buckshot.
I still have the one I bought through the Post Exchange and had an ordinance man rework.
Sling, with five round elastic holder and cheek rest with another five rounds on the off side.
I now have another barrel for it that I had a variable choke added for using what it was intended for and that is birds.
But the 18” barrel with improved choke is still there.
Damn I will have joined the Army 49 years ago on Oct. 6th. that gun is almost 48 years old now.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Hey I can understand the feeling, one of the L1A1 SLRs I was issued was made a year before I was born.
That rifle had seniority over me haha!

[Matt Wiser]

FN-FNC for me. Simple reason: I own one that was grandfathered in after the 1990 CA assault weapons ban took effect.

Followed by the HK-21 LMG. If it's good enough for Delta and SEAL Team Six to use, then it's good enough for me.

[LT. Ox]

In my Basic training at Fort Lewis (1966) I received c-rations, that were still the issue then, but these were in fact WWII issue.
I know because the Four Pack of cigarettes was lucky strike in a green pack. That was a big deal in WWII as Lucky advertised Luck strike green goes to war. Luckys were from then on white with a red center.
I lit one up and damn near burned my lips off. The Beef stew was not so good either.

[Silent Hunter UK]

I like the look of the Steyr AUG myself; for a weapon that entered service in 1977 it still looks futuristic.

[Draq]

This one's tough... Mas49/56 and Webley revolver. Or maybe hk33 and p38

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Hey I can understand the feeling, one of the L1A1 SLRs I was issued was made a year before I was born.
That rifle had seniority over me haha!

In 1995, my rifle was 10 years older than me and had a 54,XXX serial number(R604 M16, no "A1"). P90 for urban, L1A1 rifle, HP35 pistol. Forgot the G19.

[CDAT]

I would have to say either the MP-5K With briefcase or the P90 (so much fun).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In terms of handguns, I'd very happily choose the Browning HP but I wouldn't knock back any of the European clones of the CZ-75 (e.g. the Italian made Tanfoglio T95 pistols, the British made Spitfire pistol or if I really wanted to spend the money, the Swiss made Sphinx AT-84 or AT-88)

[.45cultist]

The Armalite AR24 is made in Turkey.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Would it be available in the T2k timeframe?

[.45cultist]

More like T2013, or T2013 timeline using V1 or V2/2.2 rules. Have to keep that in mind.....

[mpipes]

Steyr AUG or HK G-41
Glock 17 or Browning BDM
G3SG/1
MP5K-PDW
MG3
LMG-944

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The LMG-944? Interesting choice and depending on your choice of calibre you could claim it again in the Fav Weapons - Eastern Europe thread too!

[waiting4something]

My favorite Western European weapon is a hard one for me. For a assault rifle I would say a Steyr AUG or a FNC. I wasn't that into bulllpups, but the AUG is a good weapon system that has some nice features. The FNC seems like a solid weapon too, and would be faster on magazine changes which I like. Both lack a last round hold open which sucks. If the G41 would have taken off maybe I would have considered that one, but the design never went anywhere.
The Italian AR-70 I like a lot, but I'm not sure it fits here due to the fact in the story the Italians are not with Nato.

Now if I was to go the battle rifle route and could get my hands on a Dutch or Portuguese AR-10 that be the one I want. They would be rare as hens teeth though. The FAL would be a more realistic option. It has the best ergonomics of any of the battle rifles at the time except the AR-10, it's solid, and has a last round bolt hold open.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

My favorite Western European weapon is a hard one for me. For a assault rifle I would say a Steyr AUG or a FNC. I wasn't that into bulllpups, but the AUG is a good weapon system that has some nice features. The FNC seems like a solid weapon too, and would be faster on magazine changes which I like. Both lack a last round hold open which sucks. If the G41 would have taken off maybe I would have considered that one, but the design never went anywhere.
The Italian AR-70 I like a lot, but I'm not sure it fits here due to the fact in the story the Italians are not with Nato.

Now if I was to go the battle rifle route and could get my hands on a Dutch or Portuguese AR-10 that be the one I want. They would be rare as hens teeth though. The FAL would be a more realistic option. It has the best ergonomics of any of the battle rifles at the time except the AR-10, it's solid, and has a last round bolt hold open.

The best AR10 is an Omani upper on a Portugese lower, told that by someone who used them in one of the many African brushfire wars.

[waiting4something]

It's amazing all the different weapons that ended up in the Bush Wars of Africa. I swear a saw a African lady holding a M22 Stoner rifle in a picture I saw once! I wouldn't be surprised if some Cuban soldiers used a AR-10 over there as well.

[Brother in Arms]

After thinking about it in my fitful feverish sleep I have decided to revamp my post because you did specify FAVORITE.

7.62x51mm

Here are my basic standard issue favorites:
FN-FAL/L1A1, M14 or G3A3 would be a heck of a start. I like features of each of these rifles. And I have owned a semi auto version of all of them except G3A3( though I did have a CETME) and quite honestly for my purposes like shooting through cover and barricade they all work very well. Though they are all a big long and heavy especially when dismounted. I really do think the typical soldier in twilight would be walking most of the time. But I would rather have a firearm that could reach out and touch someone, maybe trying to snipe from the forested edge of a field. Id rather take 2 or 3 shots than have to waste a whole belt of MG ammo to get them. I also like the ability to launch rifle grenades at long distances with all these rifles.

Fantasy or hard to find favorites:
G3A4K if I could get my mitts on one of these rare carbines from an SAS soldier it would be a great option other than muzzle blast.


5.56X45mm |
Baisc standard issue favorites:
M16A1 or CAR-15 or COTS carbine. Light weight is plus here especially with the carbine when on foot. Though I am not really excited about the terminal performance of the 5.56x45mm cartridge they work great in full automatic. I would not want a newer gun with 3 round burst capability. Also the ability to Mount an M203 grenade launcher would be helpful, so if I had my druthers Id get an M16A1 with M203 mounted and spray paint it green.

FAMAS A1
I would choose this rifle specifically for it's small sized and high cyclic rate of automatic fire but I don't know why they only had a 25 round proprietary magazine. That being said they have a very twilight 2000ish ugly look and would be great for clearing buildings.

Fantasy hard to find favorite
Steyr AUG A1 Commando 14" barrel bullpup with built in optic and two stage semi-auto/full auto trigger. I would run it with 42 round HBAR magazines for a compact spray gun.


9x19mm

Basic standard issue favorites
Browning Hi-Power/L9A1 these are great 9x19mm handun and I would very much attempt to locate one.

Fantasy hard to find favorite
L34a1(Mk5) Sterling. I don't know how many SBS typs would be wandering around, but it's an excellent firearm if one could be had. That being said I'm sure it would extremely rare but really cool.

[Matt Wiser]

To my list, I would add the MP-5N (Navy) and the MP-5SDS (with built-in sound suppressor), as well as the Benelli M3 Super 90 shotgun. (Fell in love with it after seeing Alec Baldwin use it in The Getaway)

[Legbreaker]

Heckler & Koch G-11K2 - what's not to like about it? If it had been further developed to include a grenade launcher (which I believe was on the cards already) it'd have been even better.
Also, the Heckler & Koch LMG-11 - gotta have ammo compatibility!

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The Italian AR-70 I like a lot, but I'm not sure it fits here due to the fact in the story the Italians are not with Nato.

On a positive note, they're not actually Pact either and are actually located in western Europe...

[swaghauler]

A large number of choices but here goes;

I already carry a German made SIG 229 in .40 S&W (one of the first 1000 in the US in 1994). I could live with any SIG, The HK USP or VP-30 in 9mm or .40 or .45, a Browning Hi Power, Glock, Steyer M series in .40 or 9mm, or a Spinx pistol.

I'm torn between my SCAR-17 and my TAVOR (assuming your including Israel in the West). The FAL and the AUG (gen 3) would be "dark horse" candidates.

The MG-82 or the German MG-3 would be good machineguns

for SMGs, I would take the H&K MP-5, the Beretta PM-12, or the Sterling. Having fired all of these, I have an affection for the Beretta.

I'd probably go with a Bennelli M4 12 guage, but Beretta's autoloading 12's are good shotguns too. FN makes a good one too (as a "darkhorse").

[LT. Ox]

I have tested several of their weapons systems for the
Sheriff's department here.
I could find no fault of any weapon in the many we ran and some of them were never cleaned, on purpose. The rep said it was a matter of pride that they would keep on functioning.

[Sanjuro]

I'm a big fan of the SMLE and its derivatives. The fastest sustained rate of fire of any pre-Garand rifle, the ability to never have an empty magazine (ammo in 5 round clips but loaded into a 10-round magazine, and the clips of course have no springs so they can be left loaded indefinitely), good accuracy (the early better accuracy of the Mauser action was equalled when build quality improved), robust... what's not to like?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

I'm a big fan of the SMLE and its derivatives.

I have to agree with you there, but then I may be just slightly biased having two of them myself, one re-barrelled, etc into what is effectively a .303 sniper rifle (my grandfather won many 1,000+ yard competitions with it using only iron sights).

[Brother in Arms]

.303 Enfield more accurate than the Mauser?

Maybe if that mauser is chambered for 8x57mm...but I doubt it could equal 7x57mm (and especially not the 6.5x55 SE) the Boers proved this theory wrong using 1893/95 rifles in the Transvaal.

The Enfield is a very fast firing bolt gun. It's just about as fast a straight pull bolt actions like the K31 and Steyr 95

The 10 shot double column box magazine is probably one of it's greatest assets as a military rifle. .303 is a good cartridge reminds me of the .30-40 Krag.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

.303 Enfield more accurate than the Mauser?

Maybe if that mauser is chambered for 8x57mm...but I doubt it could equal 7x57mm (and especially not the 6.5x55 SE) the Boers proved this theory wrong using 1893/95 rifles in the Transvaal.

The Enfield is a very fast firing bolt gun. It's just about as fast a straight pull bolt actions like the K31 and Steyr 95

The 10 shot double column box magazine is probably one of it's greatest assets as a military rifle. .303 is a good cartridge reminds me of the .30-40 Krag.

I have used that 6.5 by 55 round and I can tell you that pencil will hit out to and beyond 1000 as in yards.
The next most accurate round I have fired is the 35 Weiland (spelling).
Built that with a Douglas barrel on a 98 action.
I still have better luck with the 30-06 than the .303 I have restocked and retriggered both added other mods for hunting here in Colorado and the mod Springfield four grove outshoots the Enfield by a wide margin. It outshoots my Garand but not the M1A1.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

.303 Enfield more accurate than the Mauser?

1,000 yard possibles on a regular basis with iron sights can't be wrong...
And that's not on a bench rest either - only aid was a sling.
I should probably add that it had been worked on by possibly the best gunsmith in the world in the first half of the 20th Century, but to look at it still appears to be standard issue.

[.45cultist]

Add the G19 pistol and Walther PP(.380) and a decent scoped Mauser or Enfield to the list.

[Sanjuro]

I've only fired my SMLE (iron sights only, although they are aperture sights, not the original open version) at 1000 yards once; at the time I was suffering from a neck injury so I was unable to keep firing long enough to correct for azimuth, although the marker said I had got the elevation right.
A month later, at 600 yards, after a few sighting shots I was consistently hitting the v-bull, despite a strong crosswind.
In my original post I did not say the smle was more accurate than the Mauser- rather that its initial lesser accuracy (in its earlier form of the CLLE variant used in the Boer War) was corrected; the Lee bolt system is not less inherently accurate than the Mauser. Of the two actions, if I was going hunting I would probably take something with a Mauser action, not least for the better ammunition available- but if I was going to war I would take the smle.