OT: Gun Question

[kalos72]

I was thinking bout signing back up for the Army soon and I was wondering if you guys might know of a good rifle that I can buy in the states, hopefully as cheap as possible, that might give me some good practice.

I am looking for some thing as close to the feel/design of the M16 as possible to make it an easier transition. Last time round I was an average shot because I had never fired a gun before. I want to get some practice in this time around while I get back in the gym and shape up.

I live in FLA if that matters...

Suggestions?

[headquarters]

my advice - all imho - is to get the rifle that will be used the most .

cheap ammo
legal /allowed at most ranges
sturdy
fun to shoot.

1st suggestion is the ruger 10/22.I recommend it for plinking and target practice as well as small game

Other than that mauser type bolt action mechanisms are what I believe to be best .You can get good moisin nagants for less than 100 us.

but check ammo supply and availability of parts and GOOD mags before buying .

gunbroker.com can get you an overview of the market before buying .

[chico20854]

If you want the feel of a M-16, get a civilian AR-15. You can get them in thousands of variations (stocks, barrel length, sights, accessories, manufacturers, etc), but when you pick one up the muscle memory from your last time in will come right back, its an eerie feeling. Nothing else has the same feel.

Bad news is the expense. These days with all the Obama panic an AR-15 type rifle will cost you $1000 or more. See ar15.com for a bewildering array of info on the AR.

If you want to practice marksmanship, there are a variety of good rifles out there cheap. A basic 10/22 sells at Wal-Mart for about $200 and the ammo is a steep 3 cents a round (5.56 is now 35-40+ cents a round). Mosins can be had for under $100 and there are a lot of bolt-actions, both surplus and hunting-type, on the used gun market now as people clear out their safes due to unemployment or to stock up on guns they feel are in danger of being banned in the near future. But the ergonomics of the AR aren't there although the fundamentals of marksmanship are there and don't change with the platform.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was in the Army, I bought an AR-15 just for that reason. When I first enlisted and got out Basic, I had marksmanship scores that were barely enough to graduate, but worked my way up to expert with the help of that rifle. These days, there are zillions of AR-15 clones out there, so there is a lot of choice; you'll be able to shop around that way and possibly find a deal. If possible, get an AR-15A2; if you can afford it, get an A3 (which has a MIL-STD-1913 rail atop the receiver instead of a carrying handle) and a Trijicon ACOG, since almost every soldier is issued on these days. Shoot with and without it; my nephew, who went to basic over last summer, says they didn't have ACOGs when they were shooting for record in Basic.

Another possibility, especially for BRM practice, is an AR-15 "Clone" that is chambered for .22 Long Rifle instead of .223/5.56mm. This will give you some of the "muscle memory" at a lesser cost, and let you practice basic marksmanship.

[kalos72]

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones"? I have never really looked into this much,

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Any sites you would recommend

Guns at this site seem cheap and plentyful.

www.pmulcahy.com/

(sorry paul, it was to hard to pass up)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones"? I have never really looked into this much,

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

Pauls suggestion eems a good one -but availability is probably S/R

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

[jester]

I ask you this,

What is the purpose of your buying the rifle?

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong. She was doing the OCS thing and while waiting she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with. Ah she was so sweet and cute I didn't laugh at her to badly. Since there was little point to buying your own rubber dummy rifle for training. Especialy since they cost half as much as the real thing.

So, what is your purpose for buying a "rifle." Is it to practice and learn or relearn to shoot? Or is it to also practice the whole taking it down and reassembling it thing as well? Or is it just for the whole cool factor?

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory. But, if that is what you want to do, then go with the real thing, IF you can find one, even the generic variants which some are more than reasonable. Or do what I am doing for my Cali legal ARs, buying the lowers and then the uppers. The downside, it is impossible to find the uppers right now, as well as it bewing hard to find the fully assembled ones. Folks are buying up the rifles, their components and the ammo like it is crazy as they expect a new ban to hit with this adminsitration.

IF it is shooting and honing your skills, then Get yourself a Ruger 10/22 and master the basics with an autoloader, or even a Marlin or AR-7. Just master the basics, trigger and breath control, sighting with proper sight alignment and then work your way up to the shooting positions, and even magazine changes with the rapid or even sustained fire. A benefit to the .22 is 500 rounds is between 12 and 20 bucks, for a AR class you can't get that much for under 300.

Thats just my two centavos.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

...she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with.

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by jester

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong.

And yet soooo right at the same time....

:P

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

Been there! In my experience M16s are nothing more than plastic toys designed to fall apart at the first sign of stress. Mind you the ones we were issued were at least 20 years old and seen service in the Vietnam era.
Most could be grasped by stock and butt and twisted, sights bent waaaay out of alignment and the odd bent barrel to boot. One of the battalions best shots once had to qualify with one and at 200 metres his sights had to be on the far right side of the target in the lane to his right, just so he could graze the left side of his own!

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.


Kalos, if you're looking to improve your accuracy, there are several methods of "dry firing" that don't require a range, ammunition, or even a rifle! A broomstick with a couple of nails in it for sights, a wall, pencil and paper and a friend to mark your "shots" is all that's needed. Soviets trained their Olympic marksmen this way for years (although I think they might have actually used rifles rather than sticks)!

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by headquarters

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.

Originally Posted by jester

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory.

Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.

I've said the same things many, many times on this forum and the old one. Oh how I would love to own an SLR. Fantastic rifle. Man-sized target, 600m, SLR that I've zeroed, I guarantee you a hit.

Glad we share a love of the SLR Legbreaker.

[Legbreaker]

There's just something so...."right" about the SLR. As long as it's been maintained properly and has those wonderful double leaf sights at the rear. Standard rear leaf is ok for combat, but for real shooting it's a bit on the wide side. Still, I managed ok for somebody who spent most of their time carrying an M60.

The F88 Steyr never felt as good to me. Its a fine weapon, and much easier to carry mile after mile, but it's shorter length, lighter round and odd balance didn't exactly instil the greatest confidence. On the plus side, I did fit a WWI SMLE bayonet to mine once. Damn that long blade makes it look mean and certainly scared the young'uns!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The F88 Steyr never felt as good to me. Its a fine weapon, and much easier to carry mile after mile, but it's shorter length, lighter round and odd balance didn't exactly instil the greatest confidence. On the plus side, I did fit a WWI SMLE bayonet to mine once. Damn that long blade makes it look mean and certainly scared the young'uns!

Cool. Don't suppose you took a photo?

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

I think we used them twice, once for bayonet training in Boot Camp and the other time was swim qual.

As for her, they were doing some kind of formation stuff like wedge, echelon right and left and skirmishers and all that and they only had enough dummy rifles for half of them. She also wanted to get the feel for it. Come on she is a woman, and they do feel the need to accessorize.

As for stuff breaking, hell, I had a SAW stock break on me once as did I the bipod. Stufff happens man.

[jester]

You dirty bugger!

As for the 16s, well come on the A1s had ALOT of issues! The couple times I fired them they certainly felt like they were lacking too. But the A2 is more robust. As for the whole clobbering someone with one, hey it'll do. I'll worry about it shattering after I have bashed mohameds brains in, heck, a rock will do the job too if the 16 shatters.

As for the SLR, I BOUGHT ONE! I love it, I just wish it had adjustments for windage.

And another trick I still use for the offhand is the trick we were punished with in bootcamp. Take the rifle hold it in your shoulder, then add your cartridge belt on the front of the barrel and hold the rifle steady with the added weight, then drop your forward hand holding it only in place with the hand on the pistol grip. Then when you add the forward hand and remove the belt it is so much easier to control. It certainly reduces the "crazy 8"

Dry firing has its purpose. It teaches you trigger control and one must learn and know their trigger if they want make the good controlled shots.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And yet soooo right at the same time....

:P

Been there! In my experience M16s are nothing more than plastic toys designed to fall apart at the first sign of stress. Mind you the ones we were issued were at least 20 years old and seen service in the Vietnam era.
Most could be grasped by stock and butt and twisted, sights bent waaaay out of alignment and the odd bent barrel to boot. One of the battalions best shots once had to qualify with one and at 200 metres his sights had to be on the far right side of the target in the lane to his right, just so he could graze the left side of his own!

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.


Kalos, if you're looking to improve your accuracy, there are several methods of "dry firing" that don't require a range, ammunition, or even a rifle! A broomstick with a couple of nails in it for sights, a wall, pencil and paper and a friend to mark your "shots" is all that's needed. Soviets trained their Olympic marksmen this way for years (although I think they might have actually used rifles rather than sticks)!

[jester]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.


Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

Yes you can do those things, but how many people have the time? And is it more practical to purchase a generic AR so you can do that? Or more practical to get something you can really afford and afford to shoot?

I am saying the failure drill and mag change can be learned or relearned in a shorter amount of time than to get the basics down.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by jester

I just wish it had adjustments for windage.

They do!
See those screws in the rear sight?

The front sight controls the 'fine' elevation, being screwed in or out of its sight base, as warranted. The rear sight, a peep-type, is adjustable for windage, via (2) opposing screws, and for gross elevation adjustments(100-600 meters, usually), by sliding on its ramped base.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/fal.htm
If those screws aren't there, you don't have a real one....

[headquarters]

I guess getting the closest possible to the rifle you will work with in the service is a prudent choice -if you consider this the main objective in training with it .

But the basics of marksmanship and the "second nature "feeling of confidence/ability to handle weapon safely/ about handling loaded weapons in all sorts of situations comes from long practice -regardless of make or model .

So I repeat that you should get a 200 dollar .22 semi auto and 800 dollars worth of .22 LR rather than a 1000 dollar rifle and 50 dollars worth of ammo.

(But I also hear that a hicap EBR -evil black rifle might be a good investment over there now ??hehe)

No doubt there are many finer weapons than the 10/22 .But until you get the money and maybe -the need for a better one - start of with something basic.Its accurate enough for starting up , and when I read that someone could get rounds for 5 cents here,my jelaousy flared up .That is plenty cheap .

And a .22 LR is a potent round -no doubt .Yes there are many that out -perform it .But not many that match the price and the negible recoil and wear on the gun .

The reason I recommend the 10/22 is its true and tested and functional operating system .Also its got a gazillion doohikeys to pimp it up .

In the end - if serious about shooting start up with the basics , and as in most things progress to what you feel like after some period of time .You could always sell your 10/22 when you feel the need to move on .

I got mine 10-12 years ago .Still havent sold it .Cant ever remember having a jam with the factory mags -although had a few misfires due to the ammo -AFTER it was chambered though .

Someone said "if it isnt accurate it isnt interesting " .That might be true for some -but imho its more like "if it isnt functional it isnt interesting".

The 10/22 could be used for self defense,for plinking,hunting,marksmanship training -although not the best in either category -it does do all of them.

No- I dont have a dealership for RUGER if someone wondered

If there was another start up rifle out there that could match its durability and versatility I would recommend that too.

Other than that -there are a few gunsmiths on the boards that can help you out .

Best of luck to you on the purchase.

[kalos72]

Wow this thread went all over the place didnt it?

I think I will just stick with getting the .22 and start with that.

Another thing I seem to remember that was a problem for me was "seeing" the pop ups while looking down the sights.

I was thinking that once I got comfortable with shooting again I could practice sighting the target off the rifle and making a quick aimed shot.

I had problems with re-acquiring the target and getting a good shot off in time.

[Legbreaker]

You're better off ensuring your body is positioned properly and you're holding the rifle correctly. If you get that right, each time you fire a shot, the sights should return to the same aimpoint.

Our qualification shoots in the Australian army involved both deliberate, where we could take as long as we wanted between shots, and rapid, where we had a limited amount of time to fire a sent number of rounds. Once I'd set myself properly, I'd fire the deliberate just as fast as rapid - take too long and your arms get tired and your accuracy will suffer.

As long as you follow the "Principles of Marksmanship", your skill will continue to improve. They are:

1. Position and hold must be firm enough to support the weapon.
2. The rifle must point naturally at the target without any physical effort.
3. Sight alignment and aiming must be correct.
4. The shot must be released and followed through without any disturbance to the position.

Even before you fire the first shot you should "test and adjust". Line up on the target, close your eyes, open your hands so the rifle just sits loose and relaxed in them, then grasp the rifle firmly again, open your eyes and see where the sights are now lining up. Then, move your body around as you think to make the sights line up and repeat until you're happy with the result.

One of the methods of dry firing is simply an extention of the above, with your "shots" marked on paper a few feet away each time you open your eyes (obviously you need a friend to help).

[pmulcahy11b]

I go slightly off the Principles of Marksmanship in that my trigger finger is my middle finger. Always has been. I can't even hit a damned thing with my index finger as a trigger finger. But that's just a personal quirk.

[TiggerCCW UK]

In a similar fashion I struggled, particularly with the SA80 family being bullpup, because I'm right handed but left eye dominant. I was usually the guy in the range with a patch stuck to my shooting glasses

[chico20854]

What Kalos is referring to is the standard U.S. Army rifle qualification course, which has a number of targets from 50m to 300m scattered over an area about 25m wide and 300m deep. The targets pop up and only stay up for a little bit of time, depending on the distance - the 50m is only up for 1.5 seconds or so, the 300m for 5 seconds, and sometimes you'll have 2 up at the same time. They come up in random order, so you need to have your eyes actively searching the area for the targets (they are dark green but usually the area near them is fairly shot up, so you look around for the dirt areas in the vegetation) and then need to shift your eyesight and body to point the weapon at the correct target and get off an accurate shot before the target goes down. (There is an alternate paper-only qualification course, but the pop-ups are by far the preferred.) All qualification courses are timed, and require magazine changes. You fire 20 shots total (in 2 10-round loaded magazines) from a foxhole and 20 rounds (also in 2 magazines) from the prone unsupported. You need to hit (I think, somebody who's sure correct me if I'm wrong) 24 out of 40 at a minimum on the pop-ups, 28 out of 40 on the paper. (You can imagine the joy on my chief's face every time we called out "Bolo" after he hit 8 or 9 for each of 5 times in a row on a particularly unpleasant February day!)

To practice for this on a civilian range, I'd see if the range master will let you string up targets at multiple distances on the range. Have a friend stand/sit next to you and call out which target to engage next, and have him randomly assign times for you to engage (i.e. "Left 100m"... wait 4 seconds.... "Stop"). Or just hope that your new unit uses the paper targets a lot - many guard and reserve units don't have access to a pop-up range on a regular basis. (You can tweak the system/cheat on the paper targets by shooting all 20 rounds from the foxhole at the longer-range targets and fire the 20 from the prone unsupported at the shorter-range, larger targets. This would be morally wrong, however!)

[kalos72]

Chico is right on there...

But I will be going full time if I re-enlist so the unless they changed the qualifications, I will be dealing with the pop-ups again.

I know this may sound funny but, if the problems I have in FPS games are the same as the ones I will encounter on the range, then it might not be finding the target, but aiming. I play HALO alot and can find the target quickly but cant seem to get the target sighted in quickly if that makes sense.

[jester]

1 thing that has not been said with it comes to firing a known distance slow fire!

CONSISTANCY! Check to stock weld is the same place each time, trigger finger on the triger each and everytime, eye releif same same. Forehand gripping same place each time. That way your sight data is still good. If you hold your weapon differently each time it will afffect.

I mean, we were fanaticaly, right down to what we ate or drank the night before or even for breakfast.


As for the quick aquisition:

I would suggest you do one of 2 things then. Okay three,

Get a shotgun and take up skeet shooting. A single barrel to force you to be more accuate with that one shot, shooting a moving target on the fly and only having 1 shot will get you over the jitters and pause.

Timming yourself with multiple targets. Freinds and I would chrono one another going from the holster to hitting the target. Fastest time with most hits counted. My best time was about half a second, a freind was just under half a second.

Or, in the off hand, loading your weapon with 1 round, holding it at the low ready or another position I can't describe but we used alot. Then snapping it into the shoulder and firing on target. Again giving yourself say 5 seconds first and reducing the time as you get better.

I remember when I coached on the range and we did the rapid so many shooters would blow off all their rounds in under 10 seconds <10 rounds from 2 magazines> and miss their chance for what is called "A possible" which means all your rounds are on target and you get max points which is a good thing.

Start slow and build up, your skill and confidence.

I would also suggest practicing at ranging or gauging distance and wind direction and speed. And use natural things for this, grass, flags, clouds whatever is available.

And then you have the whole Kentucky windage which is something else.

Good luck!