RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Morrow Project/ Project Phoenix Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:34 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 91
Default Updating Loadouts

So, I was messing around with the basic loads listed in TM 1-1, with a goal of coming up with updated weaponry loadouts to go along with the cache updates of 1987, 1999 and 2013.

In order to simplify the process, I created a spreadsheet (big surprise) and used the TM 1-1 loads to check the formulas. Of the 62 possible combinations, I canít match the total weight (carried out to 0.01kg) of 21 loadouts. Some are off by only 0.01kg but others are off by as much a 1.00kg. Iíve triple checked everything to no avail and hope someone on the forum may have done this exercise previously or may be able to find a glitch in my calculations (otherwise it appears that the numbers in TM 1-1 are off).

In order to use the spreadsheet (Load #4 with the Ingram is loaded as an example):
  1. Dark green cells - select the weapons/miscellaneous items from the drop-downs. To remove an entry, simply enter Delete in the cell. If no selection is made in a drop-down, that line is treated as 0 for the weight calculations.
  2. Light green cells - enter the counts for hand grenades and 40mm grenades (TM 1-1 standard 40mm loadout is annotated for reference). 40mm entries are ignored unless a GL is selected from the appropriate drop-down.
  3. Light yellow cells Ė enter the number of reloads included. The sheet then multiples this by the listed Feed Device Capacity to give you a total weight and it displays the total number of rounds as well. For some miscellaneous items (LAW, Dragon, HAFLA, etc.) you enter the number of one use launchers or missiles carried.

Once I know the calculations are right, this then becomes a tool for customizing loadouts and makes it easy to add different weapons or gear (i.e. M18 Smoke grenades, SAW, M320 GL, etc.).

Last edited by Desert Mariner; 07-15-2019 at 10:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:48 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Mariner View Post
So, I was messing around with the basic loads listed in TM 1-1, with a goal of coming up with updated weaponry loadouts to go along with the cache updates of 1987, 1999 and 2013.

In order to simplify the process, I created a spreadsheet (big surprise) and used the TM 1-1 loads to check the formulas. Of the 62 possible combinations, I can’t match the total weight (carried out to 0.01kg) of 21 loadouts. Some are off by only 0.01kg but others are off by as much a 1.00kg. I’ve triple checked everything to no avail and hope someone on the forum may have done this exercise previously or may be able to find a glitch in my calculations (otherwise it appears that the numbers in TM 1-1 are off).

In order to use the spreadsheet (Load #4 with the Ingram is loaded as an example):
  1. Dark green cells - select the weapons/miscellaneous items from the drop-downs. To remove an entry, simply enter Delete in the cell. If no selection is made in a drop-down, that line is treated as 0 for the weight calculations.
  2. Light green cells - enter the counts for hand grenades and 40mm grenades (TM 1-1 standard 40mm loadout is annotated for reference). 40mm entries are ignored unless a GL is selected from the appropriate drop-down.
  3. Light yellow cells – enter the number of reloads included. The sheet then multiples this by the listed Feed Device Capacity to give you a total weight and it displays the total number of rounds as well. For some miscellaneous items (LAW, Dragon, HAFLA, etc.) you enter the number of one use launchers or missiles carried.

Once I know the calculations are right, this then becomes a tool for customizing loadouts and makes it easy to add different weapons or gear (i.e. M18 Smoke grenades, SAW, M320 GL, etc.).
What I have found in the past with most of the weight problems from 1st thru 4th edition is the source of the information. For example the M10 comes in 9mm and 45ACP. Some weights show the 9mm at 2.80 Kg will the 45ACP version is 2.83 Kg. Then the suppressor that originally came with M10 was from Sionics and depending on the source of data weights 1.2 lbs.

Then it comes down to the exact weight of an empty 9mm and 45ACP magazine. Then add the weight of 32 9mm or 30 45ACP cartridges and then what type of cartridges where used standard ball?

I'll dig around in my library to see what I can find out for specs.

Last edited by nuke11; 06-17-2019 at 09:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:35 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuke11 View Post
What I have found in the past with most of the weight problems from 1st thru 4th edition is the source of the information.
I've noticed that before. However, the spreadsheet is using the weight data from the individual items in the 4E and the calculations still don't match the loadout totals shown in TM 1-1. So, either I've erred in a formula (which I haven't yet found) or the authors made some math errors.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:58 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Mariner View Post
I've noticed that before. However, the spreadsheet is using the weight data from the individual items in the 4E and the calculations still don't match the loadout totals shown in TM 1-1. So, either I've erred in a formula (which I haven't yet found) or the authors made some math errors.
I'm guessing the load outs where carried over from the 3rd edition. Any new ones where most likely created for 4th edition with newer information available.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:13 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 275
Default

Here are my numbers for Load #4

LOAD #4 4th Edition target : 18.82kg

1 M10 w/12 mags = 2.83 kg + 13x0.62 kg : 10.89 kg
1 HP-35 w/3 mags = 0.88 kg + 3x0.2 kg : 1.48 kg
4 M67 Grenades = 4x0.39 kg : 1.56 kg
2 M6 CN-DM Grenades = 2x0.48 kg : 0.96 kg
2 M9A1 BZ Grenades = 2x0.45 kg : 0.90 kg
2 M34 WP Grenades = 2x0.76 kg : 1.52 kg
3 HAFLA-35Ls = 3x0.63 kg : 1.89 kg

Weapons Total : 19.20 kg

Project pistol suppressor : 0.24 kg
Project M10 suppressor : 0.34 kg

Total : 19.78 kg

Over by 0.96 kg

If you want to update to the M6A1 CN-DM (M6A1 2x0.57 kg) : 1.14 kg
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:33 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuke11 View Post
Here are my numbers for Load #4

LOAD #4 4th Edition target : 18.82kg

1 M10 w/12 mags = 2.83 kg + 13x0.62 kg : 10.89 kg
I notice your weight for the M10 is 2.83kg while TM 1-1 lists 2.84kg which equates to exactly the error margin (0.01kg) I'm getting for this specific loadout. I'm curious where the 2.83 figure originates, every source I've found thus far lists 2.84. (I discounted the 13th magazine)

I know it's only a hundredth but if I can't get the numbers to come out correctly using given data (TM 1-1 loadouts) then I can't have much confidence in new figures I generate.

Any updates for USGI munitions and ordinance, such as the M6A1, would be appreciated. Most of my Army TM Data Sheets are from the mid-80s and 90s which will work for the first 2 updates but not the last
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-19-2019, 05:51 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Mariner View Post
I notice your weight for the M10 is 2.83kg while TM 1-1 lists 2.84kg which equates to exactly the error margin (0.01kg) I'm getting for this specific loadout. I'm curious where the 2.83 figure originates, every source I've found thus far lists 2.84. (I discounted the 13th magazine)

I know it's only a hundredth but if I can't get the numbers to come out correctly using given data (TM 1-1 loadouts) then I can't have much confidence in new figures I generate.

Any updates for USGI munitions and ordinance, such as the M6A1, would be appreciated. Most of my Army TM Data Sheets are from the mid-80s and 90s which will work for the first 2 updates but not the last
0.01 Kg is well within acceptable error limits.

For 2.83 Kg for the M10 9mm I'm using Kevin Dockery's Special Warfare Special Weapons book. Now if you look at his The Armory Vol 1 he has it listed as 2.84 Kg, which this book was done around the same time as TMP was being published. I will be digging into my library of 1970's Jane's books, but I need to get them out of storage.

I believe that the M9A1 BZ grenade might be light for weight. But that is a very hard grenade to find information on. I'm basing my assumption on just looking at the M6/A1, M7/A1/A2/A3 and the M8 smoke grenades. They are all a bit heavier in the A1 configuration than there initial versions. Looking around the closest that I could find has a Yugosolvian BRS M79 AG-2 grenade which in the 2 reports I found, is 0.45 Kg, so maybe the M9A1 could be right.

Last edited by nuke11; 06-19-2019 at 06:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:39 PM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 91
Default

I had checked the Armory but not sure what happened to my copy of Special Weapons. I'm at a point where I think my formulas are good and that the totals in 4e TM 1-1 are off.
So, I'll proceed with adding some newer weaponry for the late cache upgrades.
My thought on canned basic loadouts is to ignore them in favor of choosing weapons in the categories in the spreadsheet and building an individual loadout. This even allows for a SASS type load for a contact package if the PC so desires.
If there's any interest, I can post an updated spreadsheet with my additions.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:02 AM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Mariner View Post
I had checked the Armory but not sure what happened to my copy of Special Weapons. I'm at a point where I think my formulas are good and that the totals in 4e TM 1-1 are off.
So, I'll proceed with adding some newer weaponry for the late cache upgrades.
My thought on canned basic loadouts is to ignore them in favor of choosing weapons in the categories in the spreadsheet and building an individual loadout. This even allows for a SASS type load for a contact package if the PC so desires.
If there's any interest, I can post an updated spreadsheet with my additions.
Sure always post new information.

I always used the included load-outs as suggestions We modified them to suite what was needed and was cool in the day.

Some of the weights are way off, not really sure where they got them from.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-13-2019, 02:25 PM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 91
Default

Updated spreadsheet is attached. There are two worksheets Calculations and Data. Data is just that, background data for the various drop-downs and actual weight calculations. Entries that are highlighted in tan are new items not contained in TM 1-1.

The Calculation sheet needs user input in the light green cells to indicate the number of given items (i.e. grenades, reloads (aka feed devices), etc.). The dark green cells are drop-downs. There is input available for up to 2 sidearms, rifle/carbine, SMG, shotgun, GL, MG and as many as 4 miscellaneous items (suppressors, missiles, Medic Kit, even extra MG belts).

Hand and 40mm grenades are entered in the lower 2 tables and each has an area to enter a standard or suggested loadout for reference. New items in these tables are also highlighted. The 40mm grenades will not appear in the totals unless a GL is selected from the appropriate drop-down.

New weapons range from Colt SAA to SIG P320, the FN SCAR family to Winchester lever guns and the M249 to M32A1 GL. New grenades include the HGr86, M15 WP, M18 smoke and SOHG plus numerous non-lethal and smoke 40mm rounds.

The weights used are all in a separate spreadsheet where Iíve settled in a given round for each weapon (i.e. Hornady 750gr AMAX BT for the new .50 calibers) most of the other cartridges used are from Sellier & Bellot. Weights include everything (I think) right down to the MG belt links. I did this to make the data repeatable and so that it is easy to add to the tables. This also enabled the second part of my current project; updated stat blocks for the weapons including range cards (see attached PDF as an example).

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT -I should have added that the reason for multiple older weapons is it allowed me to check my calculations for adjusting muzzle velocity based on barrel length. The S&B cartridges were used for the same reason as they actually list the test barrel lengths used to determine their listed MV. For purposes of the spreadsheet, I used the 25fps/inch of barrel rule of thumb I was taught years ago.

Last edited by Desert Mariner; 07-16-2019 at 01:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.