Expendable but Unbowed: The LAV-25 in the Twilight War

[Tegyrius]

@SSC - In no way did I take it poorly. I was just amused. I hadn't considered the area in which the original photo was taken to be a major selection factor. When I was doing my image search for this piece, I was mainly trying to avoid photos with Marines in anachronistic MARPAT or with vehicles clearly from a non-T2k timeline (e.g., KFOR markings or counter-IED electronics masts).

(By the way, I didn't address the ASLAV in this article because I wanted to leave that territory for whoever does a comprehensive article on the Australian military in T2k. Ahem.)

This, on the other hand:

@Olefin - You come into a thread I started on my fan work and try to dictate content to me in a poorly-veiled attempt at self-promotion? Eight years here, and you still haven't internalized advice point #5. Congratulations. You are now the first person on this forum with the right combination of arrogance, rudeness, and tenacity to earn a slot on my ignore list.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

(By the way, I didn't address the ASLAV in this article because I wanted to leave that territory for whoever does a comprehensive article on the Australian military in T2k. Ahem.)

No no, go ahead so I can steal your work!
Seriously though I'm focusing more on the big picture stuff rather than minutia such as equipment stats. Including authorised OOBs and general loadouts, but leaving stats to those better qualified than me (ahem, Paul).

[pmulcahy11b]

When I first got to the 82nd (this was about May 91) they were in the process of trying to foist off the LAV-25 on 3/73. The tankers were not happy, and most importantly, the CG and the ADC(M) were not happy. The LAV-25 did not last long at 3-73 (and I do think they were the wrong vehicle for the 3/73). The 3/73 ended up going to Desert Storm with up-armored HMMWVs with TOWs in the back. Embarrassing.

[Olefin]

No actually I am pointing out that the LAV-25 was deployed to Africa as well and I cited the source. Thats not being rude thats just pointing out a unit that had the vehicles the deployed to Africa and used them in combat in Kenya.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

@SSC - In no way did I take it poorly. I was just amused. I hadn't considered the area in which the original photo was taken to be a major selection factor. When I was doing my image search for this piece, I was mainly trying to avoid photos with Marines in anachronistic MARPAT or with vehicles clearly from a non-T2k timeline (e.g., KFOR markings or counter-IED electronics masts).

(By the way, I didn't address the ASLAV in this article because I wanted to leave that territory for whoever does a comprehensive article on the Australian military in T2k. Ahem.)

This, on the other hand:

@Olefin - You come into a thread I started on my fan work and try to dictate content to me in a poorly-veiled attempt at self-promotion? Eight years here, and you still haven't internalized advice point #5. Congratulations. You are now the first person on this forum with the right combination of arrogance, rudeness, and tenacity to earn a slot on my ignore list.

- C.

Yes I remember your post - it was rude and implied that there was no way that any new material for Twilight 2000 could ever be published and that I could not get what I was writing published.

Sorry but you were wrong big time - because Raellus and I have written three stand alone published works, one of which is official canon for the game and two others that should be frankly (and by that I mean the excellent works by Raellus) and I brought the fanzine back from the dead.

So frankly do us a favor and take our attitude somewhere else. There was nothing and I repeat nothing in what I posted to you last night that deserved that response. I simply pointed out that now there is canon material that has the LAV-25 deployed to Africa and I cited the unit that had them - i.e. it was a Marine unit.

and FYI insulting someone is a total violation of the board rules - maybe you should read them - i.e. this one

Keep It Civil

We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here. If you are upset with someone and want them to know about it, send them a PM and try to work it out privately. If another member is really getting on your nerves, you can use the forum tools to place that person on your ignore list. We don't tolerate flame wars here.

Please don't attempt to incite internecine forum conflict with deliberately provocative and/or inflamatory posts. In interweb parlance, please don't be a troll.

[Raellus]

OK, gentlemen. Before this gets out of hand, I'd like to remind everyone to follow the forum guidelines by...

A.) Keep It Constructive

Folks post a lot of original T2K material here, most of it of the highest quality. Many contributors invite and welcome constructive criticism. If, however, they do not solicit feedback, then it's poor form to pipe in give it anyway. And please, don't post just to tear down the hard work of others. If you really don't like something that someone else has posted, and can't express this respectfully and with the intention of creating a constructive dialogue with the poster, then you should probably just keep it to yourself.

B.) Keep It Civil

We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here. If you are upset with someone and want them to know about it, send them a PM and try to work it out privately. If another member is really getting on your nerves, you can use the forum tools to place that person on your ignore list. We don't tolerate flame wars here.

Thanks.

-

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

OK, gentlemen. Before this gets out of hand, I'd like to remind everyone to follow the forum guidelines by...

A.) Keep It Constructive

Folks post a lot of original T2K material here, most of it of the highest quality. Many contributors invite and welcome constructive criticism. If, however, they do not solicit feedback, then it's poor form to pipe in give it anyway. And please, don't post just to tear down the hard work of others. If you really don't like something that someone else has posted, and can't express this respectfully and with the intention of creating a constructive dialogue with the poster, then you should probably just keep it to yourself.

B.) Keep It Civil

We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here. If you are upset with someone and want them to know about it, send them a PM and try to work it out privately. If another member is really getting on your nerves, you can use the forum tools to place that person on your ignore list. We don't tolerate flame wars here.

Thanks.

-

FYI to show information that he most likely didnt have is constructive dialogue with the poster. Thats why I didnt link to my sourcebook, thats why I didnt in any way try to advertise its location, etc.. I posted the relevant material as a constructive dialogue - and notice how I started the post - " Loved your article"

Since when is "Loved your article" not clear to people that I loved the article?

And FYI - there was no PM to me at all from him - if he had the decency to PM me and expressed his dislike of what I said I would have immediately removed the offending post end of story. Instead he decided to act like a spoiled child and pick a fight that didnt need to be picked. If he doesnt like that I ignored his advice - along with Raellus - and got published officially then I am not sorry - not in any way shape or form.

[Tegyrius]

As is often the case, I found something of interest after kicking the manuscript out the door. As it turns out, the Air Force actually was interested in a LAV-25-based ADA platform!

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/co...pe_lav25_hull/

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/co...obile_weapons/

https://twitter.com/tankmuseum/statu...26327952068608

Accordingly, I've integrated this into the document's ADA and prototypes sections. I've also updated the Marine LAV Battalion TO&E to reflect the originally-intended deployment of LAV-ADs in those formations (rather than the much more parsimonious procurement that resulted in the real world).

Download link is the same as in the first post.

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Nice find!
A good bit of LAV-25 history that seems largely forgotten these days.

[Tegyrius]

It's an odd duck, but what I really found interesting while digging up info on it was a throwaway line in a USMC procurement/deployment proposal regarding the LAV-AD's original design. Thanks to Osprey, we already knew that the second four-tube Stinger box was originally a 70mm Hydra launcher. But the mount for that rocket pod was intended to be a modular mount that would also accept RBS-70 or Starstreak SAMs (not sure why they would have mixed those with Stingers)... or a TOW or Hellfire launcher.

The combination of 25mm Gatling, Stingers, and ATGMs (and the commander's M240) would have made the LAV-AD the Y-Wing of the Marine LAI/LAR battalions. A weapon for every occasion. I didn't explicitly say this in the file, but if the Twilight LAV-AD kept that capability, it's ideal for PCs to make a field modification... which makes for a very appealing weapon package. If you can keep it in ammo, you get better-than-Bradley firepower with LAV fuel economy. Of course, the downside is that you also get LAV armor, but you can't have everything...

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

@SSC - In no way did I take it poorly. I was just amused. I hadn't considered the area in which the original photo was taken to be a major selection factor. When I was doing my image search for this piece, I was mainly trying to avoid photos with Marines in anachronistic MARPAT or with vehicles clearly from a non-T2k timeline (e.g., KFOR markings or counter-IED electronics masts).


- C.

You know, this is where I wish I had some skill with the pencil and paintbrush (or better yet, more skill with Photoshop Elements). Just not in my skill set.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

When I first got to the 82nd (this was about May 91) they were in the process of trying to foist off the LAV-25 on 3/73. The tankers were not happy, and most importantly, the CG and the ADC(M) were not happy. The LAV-25 did not last long at 3-73 (and I do think they were the wrong vehicle for the 3/73). The 3/73 ended up going to Desert Storm with up-armored HMMWVs with TOWs in the back. Embarrassing.

I was fortunate in that the T2k TO&Es didn't change between 1st and 2nd editions. GDW didn't write up the LAV-25 as assigned to the 82nd, so I didn't have to address that particular shoehorn-driven mismatch in this piece.

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You know, this is where I wish I had some skill with the pencil and paintbrush (or better yet, more skill with Photoshop Elements). Just not in my skill set.

I'm right there with you. I was able to get the fonts to what I think is a pretty good approximation of the old 1e sourcebooks' appearance, but there was no way I was going to generate original illustrations for this that looked worth a damn. I did install GIMP and a couple of different photo-to-pencil filters to try for the original sourcebooks' sketch appearance, but I don't have the skill set to clean up the resulting "noise" (or the spare time to acquire it). My test readers preferred the simple greyscale photos and I have to agree with them.

- C.