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  #61  
Old 08-10-2009, 10:20 AM
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Well i think its time for me to sound off. as a combat vet GDW's "canon" is about as fake as one can get. loses are way to high.

#1: the Soviet navy sucked badly. I have used harpoon to wargame it all out they lasted less then 2 months

#2:available NATO Tank and AFV. 512 M-1's a year from one 1 plant, 1 shift in 1990. I'd see that tripling in times of war. probably soon after the start of the war in china. also if the Detroit tank plant was retooled that's another 1500-1600 tanks a year. I see NATO/US as having far more tanks/AFV's then in "canon" and the Soviet/ WP having more men and less tanks/AFV's.

#3:GDW's numbers on loses are far to high. as a 19k myself I know. I've been hit by all kinda of things (T-72's at point blank range, ATGW, RPG's, ect) and know an M-1 is very hard to kill. also tanks can get "knocked out" many times and be repaired in the field with minim spares.

as for fuel M-1's can run on anything that burns. one of our joke was we could get drunk and piss in the fuel tank. LOL

#4: nukes, GDW does not take in to account the fact that a large number of then would be shot down. and most where targeted at units in the field. a 20KT warhead would be lucky to kill a tank battalion.

last I'd like to thank Chico and the DC working group for the fine work they have done. I don't agree with it all but it's far better then "canon"

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  #62  
Old 08-10-2009, 10:35 AM
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#4: nukes, GDW does not take in to account the fact that a large number of then would be shot down. and most where targeted at units in the field. a 20KT warhead would be lucky to kill a tank battalion.
Indeed? Tell me more.
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  #63  
Old 08-10-2009, 11:09 AM
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Targan:
Relax, nobody is saying that you didn't like the DC Working Group's efforts. Remember what LAW used to say to everyone "Use it if want to, or just ignore it if it didn't fit into your game".

Chico:
Just keep pumping out all your & the DC Working Group's wonderful work.

Leg & Targan:
I view canon's excuse for "last major fleet in being", "US Navy ceases to exists", "US Civilian Government ceases to exist", etc. with the exact same grain of salt as they in Star Trek "The Enterprise is the only ship in the Quadrant", "The Enterprise is the only ship in interception range", etc. Take it for what it's worth.
I think it was just GDW's way of limiting the PC's options i.e. no calling for air support or an immediate extraction from a hot AO. Just the same way as Operation Omega made the PC's get rid of all their precious war gains, i.e. that T-80 tank they salvaged, or that SCUD-B they "happened" across, etc.
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  #64  
Old 08-10-2009, 11:21 AM
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Indeed? Tell me more.
Well lets see where should I start? I guess I'll start at the "shot down" part

all of NATO/US troops had by 1996 irl Patriot missile's and software upgrades to IHAWK to allow them to shoot down incoming warheads, with the IHAWK it would be a very close call. you only had at the most 30 seconds of engagement time.

as for the 20KT bomb on a tank battalion, well there is a lot to say, so I'll only cover some of the basics. a very good depiction of a 20 KT bomb on a tank unit can be found in the book "Vortex" by Larry bond just keep in mind that unit was not ready for NBC warfare. FM 3-4,FM 3-6,FM 3-7,FM 3-14 and a host of others can enlighten. after the 1st day of nukes popping off all army's in the world know to increase spacing by 4-5 times,( eg; tanks 200m apart are now 800-1000m apart) the kill zone/blast radius for tank/afv's is small on even 500kt bombs. ( a few square miles) this should help: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

that's all I can think of off the top of my head. hope it helps.
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Last edited by Dog 6; 08-10-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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  #65  
Old 08-10-2009, 01:15 PM
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I don't think it's our intention to radically alter "canon", if we did we'd not have the 49th Armored Division in the US post-TDM. We really want to point a way to the future regarding the recovery plan. One way others may use of recovery plan is that it was the plan (and may be partially or poorly implemented, consequently ineffective) thus making it adaptable to many differing views of the US post 2001.

Regarding Wargaming the Twilight War, it is our intention to follow the general thrust of the war laid out by GDW. What we want to do is develop more comprehensive campaign histories for units, (all units, of all combatant nationalities). While there is potential that the wargaming will give us combat results which could serverely alter the the histories of key combat units outlined in "canon", we reserve the right to employ a "factor of fudge" to avoid a two radical deviation from GDW's original vision (we do retain our own internally inconsistant view of what defines "radical"). We just feel that having one paragraph to state the war history for a division is too vague.
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  #66  
Old 08-10-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog 6 View Post
Well i think its time for me to sound off. as a combat vet GDW's "canon" is about as fake as one can get. loses are way to high.
Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.
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  #67  
Old 08-10-2009, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dog 6 View Post
Well lets see where should I start? I guess I'll start at the "shot down" part

all of NATO/US troops had by 1996 irl Patriot missile's and software upgrades to IHAWK to allow them to shoot down incoming warheads, with the IHAWK it would be a very close call. you only had at the most 30 seconds of engagement time.

as for the 20KT bomb on a tank battalion, well there is a lot to say, so I'll only cover some of the basics. a very good depiction of a 20 KT bomb on a tank unit can be found in the book "Vortex" by Larry bond just keep in mind that unit was not ready for NBC warfare. FM 3-4,FM 3-6,FM 3-7,FM 3-14 and a host of others can enlighten. after the 1st day of nukes popping off all army's in the world know to increase spacing by 4-5 times,( eg; tanks 200m apart are now 800-1000m apart) the kill zone/blast radius for tank/afv's is small on even 500kt bombs. ( a few square miles) this should help: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

that's all I can think of off the top of my head. hope it helps.
As far as these parts of canon (very successful tac nukes and entire units getting destroyed) I can go with them and understand it the DC group does as well. These things are certainly in a 10% likelihood area. Units could have been caught in a marshaling area and the Sovs could have come up with some creative jamming for example. This would be the first tactical use of nukes and I am sure the next generation Field Manuals would have even better recommendations as it really is a new type of warfare. Again I feel the US would have probably done better than the Sovs in catching gathered units (due to things like J-Stars), but if Canon or the DC group keeps things even I can consider that plausible.

All the ships being destroyed however is hard for me to put in that 10% area of likelihood. That really is the problem the DC group has, balancing realism and canon. I want them to keep close to canon but if too many things fall out of the 10% likelihood I accept them tweaking things towards realism. If the Mexican invasion is radically changed to make it more likely to be successful I'm ok with that. No (or a significantly modified) Division Cuba also makes sense. The Alaskan invasion being more of a disaster for the sovs. 60 ships instead of 9. All of these things IMO are within the realm of the plausible rather than canon which while technically within the realm of the possible are difficult to resolve with real world facts.

A while back I had a two hour phone conversation with LAW. He discussed laboring over over how to kill off as many ships as he considered plausible. Always erring in the direction of canon. At a minimum I think we can agree that some US Boomers (which at the time had never been successfully tracked by the USSR) would have in all likelihood survived.

Just as with anything in the game if you don't like the details change them. We all have been doing that since we began gaming.

Last edited by kato13; 08-10-2009 at 10:15 PM.
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  #68  
Old 08-11-2009, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.
I'm Fusilier and I endorse this comment.
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  #69  
Old 08-12-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.
I'm Canadian Army and I endorse this comment.
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  #70  
Old 08-12-2009, 06:59 AM
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We must work with what's been presented and expand on it.
(emphases added)

You guys feel we "must" do this. Sorry but that seems a little closed minded. I have always defended any changes people wanted to make to their games. Be is extraterrestrial healing entities, vampires, zombies, higher levels of technology or anything else for that matter.
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  #71  
Old 08-12-2009, 08:40 AM
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I stand by the statement. Any work which purports to be canonical should not ignore in part or in full anything already written and published.

HOWEVER, I've got absolutely nothing against individuals or groups who choose to alter and/or throw away canon for their own reasons, provided they don't try to pass it off as canon.

This is the core of my statements and disagreements. The real world differs in many significant ways to canon, but that's the real world. Individual players and GMs have differing takes on the world, but again, that's their interpretation, their creation. It is not canon and cannot be passed off as the "real" Twilight:2000 world.

Those views, like T2K itself has become, are an alternate reality. In many ways they are similar, but change too much and it completely changes the balance of power. Change too much and it's no longer T2K but something entirely different.
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  #72  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:39 AM
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Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...
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  #73  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:00 AM
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Ya know what,
I am damn ashamed of the conduct of SOME on this board. Chico's out there, writing his arse off. The work he puts in is damned good and frankly, addresses some issues GDW couldn't when they wrote the game in 1984. I think had GDW done a 3rd ed, they would have gone the route of the DC working group.

Know what? I am calling some of you out. Leg especially. Don't like what we do? MAN UP AND WRITE SOMETHING YOURSELF! PUT IT OUT THERE FOR OTHERS TO CRITIQUE FOR NO MONEY AND NO RECOGNITION OUTSIDE OF A SMALL GROUP OF LIKE MINDED FANS!

I don't blame Chico for walking away. I am just pissed some of you idjits pushed him to it. Now, either man up and write something, and recognize something: THERE's NOTHING MORE BEING PUBLISHED FOR Twilight 2000 PROPER! 2013 is the new incarnation and it's going in a new direction. So, if you wanna be a canon nazi, the do so, but realize, you're gonna be one lonely cuss.

And as for the GAME comment: Since when the hell does my having fun impact yours here? Don't wanna play it, don't use it, but to run down a guy like Chico for having the balls to do this? To get us together over three years, one of us being deployed downrange and a host of other issues is nothing short of remarkable.

Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico? Expect nothing but my contempt.
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  #74  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chico20854 View Post
Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...
Wow, I hope you change your mind. I love your work. I was only trying to provide a bit of constructive criticism on one area, I didn't mean to cause offence.
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  #75  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:16 AM
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Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico? Expect nothing but my contempt.
Aww c'mon man, nobody was hounding Chico. Lets everyone just chill out a bit okay?
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  #76  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:24 AM
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I'm with Targan, deep breaths everyone...

I'm hoping Chico isn't going to publish, because were working on stuff, not out of frustration.
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  #77  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason Weiser View Post
Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico? Expect nothing but my contempt.
This is probably a bad time for me to be voicing my opinions as mentally I have a lot of raw nerves exposed due to real life situations, but I feel I have to say something.

My general comment to those who complain is. Go out and put in 1000s hours of work and then give it away and then we can start talking.

Overall I feel complaints about others work are silly. If you don't like it IGNORE it. If some percentage chose a different path from what I chose, great for them.

Do I need to make a separate forum for "non canon" submissions like 2300AD people necessitated.

For some strange reason we are now acting like a traditional forum. Not as venomous of course but it seems to be going down that path.

I also have to say that the characters actions can easily undo canon. If the Corpus Christi is lost with all hands due a stray shot against the saboteur then "canon" has been changed.

Po's detonation of the nuke in Lublin probably changed canon.

If Cutter's ambush succeeds and Reset falls into the hands of the KGB canon would be changed.

A shot killing the Black Baron would invalidate an entire module.

I like options. I like the free exchange of information here. I respect everyone who contributes. I may not agree with everything they say but I try to understand that opinions vary. This board has opened my eyes on certain opinions I have had, and reinforced others. I have seen things posted which I vehemently disagreed with but I still respected the opinion as best I could.

Last edited by kato13; 08-12-2009 at 03:38 PM.
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  #78  
Old 08-12-2009, 12:41 PM
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No chico - come back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't leave us!!!
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  #79  
Old 08-12-2009, 01:27 PM
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Hello people

I agree with Targan, take a little time to breath. No reason to jump at each other throats. This has been a friendly (if sometimes pushy) forum and I hope it should remain like that.

Canon is fine, non canon is fine as well. This is a game, a role playing game and canon certainly was never intended to be an absolute. According to the designers themselves "Twilight 2000 is not meant to be a serious projection of future trends, it is escapist entertainment".

Therefore, canon is highly respectful, but it can be changed at will as long as you end up with their first intention: For the entertainment to be complete, players have to be able to engage in "willing suspension of disbelief".

For my part, changing canon has been a long time pleasure. Sharing it, discussing it and reading other players views is another.

Enjoy and good play everyone.
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  #80  
Old 08-12-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854 View Post
Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...
Chico, I hope my solitary comment on this thread has not contributed to your unwillingness to publish anymore of your work. I appreciate what an awful lot of effort it is to put this kind of thing together.

Frankly there is some stuff in The US Recovery Plan I disagree with - I think once the tac nukes came out most US carriers would be at least unserviceable in pretty short order - but on the other hand I find it perfectly logical that more boomers would survive than "canon" indicates for the reasons you've given. But then I've also thought that GDW's targetting plan was pretty strange in places (I've never understood why Sunny Point and Bayonne weren't whacked at an early stage for instance) so I've never been overly obsessed with "canon".

I'd be more than happy to read more of your work - I'd say that most of the comments in this thread were in the order of happy discussion than anything else - perhaps you should view the 78 posts so far in this thread as a demonstration of the interest shown in your work rather than a concerted nit-picking attempt.

And what would the forum be without nit picking? As long as it is done in a friendly way
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  #81  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:38 PM
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NOBODY is saying Chico and the DC group aren't doing good work. They have produced some damn fine stuff and they should certainly keep at it.

The problem seems to lie with those who feel canon, in any of it's published variants (1.0, 2.0/.2, 2013) isn't relevant and should "officially" (for lack of a better word) be changed to fit their own perceptions. These changes are fine for those involved, but the apparent attitude of some of these people to want to force the alterations upon others, is totally unacceptable in my view.

And so back to my core point. We have a set, published timeline of events. It doesn't match up with reality, but it's not supposed to.
Those wishing to make changes should most certainly feel free to do so, but they should identify such as what it is - an alternate view.

Now, as to PCs changing the world, I really don't see that as a problem at all. To me, anything that occurs in a game is perfectly fine, and in fact should be encouraged. Canon really only covers up until the dates in the relevant published reference books (July 2000 for the early books, mid 2001 for most of the US settings).

If there was no hope of altering the situations in the published materials, then what would be the point of playing the game? My arguement goes more towards those wanting to change the past rather than the future.

To summarise:
Expansion of canon = good
Wholesale alteration calling changes canon = bad
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  #82  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
The problem seems to lie with those who feel canon, in any of it's published variants (1.0, 2.0/.2, 2013) isn't relevant and should "officially" (for lack of a better word) be changed to fit their own perceptions. These changes are fine for those involved, but the apparent attitude of some of these people to want to force the alterations upon others, is totally unacceptable in my view.

And so back to my core point. We have a set, published timeline of events. It doesn't match up with reality, but it's not supposed to.
Those wishing to make changes should most certainly feel free to do so, but they should identify such as what it is - an alternate view.

To summarise:
Expansion of canon = good
Wholesale alteration calling changes canon = bad
Hello Leg

I'm not sure I understand you on that point. Canon is always relevant as you cannot make any change if you don't start with it. In the meantime, it is irrelevant and certainly not mendatory. If that was not the case, you would not have more than one single version. Actually, some of us consider v1.0 to be canon, others consider v2.0/2.2 to be canon...

We discussed this with smokewolf concerning T2013 a few month ago. The final conclusion was: the timeline is only an indication. If it fits you, fine, if it doesn't, change it as much as you want. I have the feeling that this statement is valid for all version of T2K.

However, I agree with you on one point, changes shouldn't be forced upon others. Nonetheless, I never felt that this was the case for anyone. Then, it seems fair to defend a point and to share it. That the only way you have if you don't want to be stuck with your own limited views. When anyone starts a thread (including myself) I often disagree (and yes, on second reading, I can even disagree with myself or find out that I'm out of the subject) but I never found that they had no point at all.

I have never noticed any wholesale alteration calling changes canon.

My point is simple: this is only entertainment and RPG, the only limit is your own imagination and you shouldn't restrain it in ways.
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  #83  
Old 08-13-2009, 01:09 AM
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I thought I would post my support for Chico. I sincerely hope that he does continue to share his ideas with us. I will admit that the only reason that I stopped my lurking of the threads and actually say something is because I wanted to know more.

I thought the US Recovery Plan was excellent. I loved following along to see how the returning US forces were striving hard to recover what was lost. I also want to say that you and the group made some rather thoughtful and intelligent decision which I thought fit in quite well. I had read the history of Version 1 the other day. The Recovery Plan did well to fix the gaping holes that were made (and a few contradictions)

Again, I give my support and hope to read more of your excellent work.
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  #84  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:41 AM
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Love to see that someone has put together an alternate timeline like this. I played T2000 back when it first came out and what eventually killed it was the total revulsion the group took to the way the US modules, especially Kidnapped, Howling Wilderness and City of Angels, were written.

I know that some of the writers of T2000 are part of this forum and frankly they might not like me saying this. But they took a game that made sense and basically took all the fun out of it. And the fact that most of the rest of the world, as depicted in the modules, wasnt going thru that kind of total killoff of its population really showed that what they wanted to do was turn the game into Aftermath, with no surviving government and military at all, at least in the US.

Our Gamemaster bought them and then said that they were total player killers and that he wasnt prepared to cheat that much to keep our group from getting wiped out over and over.

After looking at them we agreed with him. Plus we also played Traveller and we had just bought Traveler 2300 AD. And the timeline as depicted made absolutely no sense with that what was happening to the US as depicted in those modules. With the drought as depicted and the total destruction of the forces of both MilGov and CivGov the US would have taken hundreds of years to ever get back on its feet, if ever.

As to arguments about canon and ignoring it. Canon can be ignored when it makes no sense and kills a game. And in the case of Twilight 2000 the so called canon of the American modules is exactly that.

Which is not to say they were all bad. Armies of the Night, Red Star/Lone Star, the Airlords of the Ozarks, Allegheny Uprising and The Last Submarine Trilogy make sense (even though I highly doubt only one SSN would still be around - what happened to all the Ohios as only one was ever mentioned being sunk) and are good modules. Even Urban Guerilla, while presenting a detestible group, is playable although just barely.

But after that, the canon should be ignored if it goes off into total unreality. And that is exactly what it did. An alternate reality has to be believable - thats why Turtledove's books are so well received and others arent.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:40 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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the point that people are trying to make is that if canon is wrong then it needs to be either changed or modified

and frankly the canon destruction of the US Navy to where only one SSN is left in the whole world, the fact that US has no carriers left of any kind afloat except one off of Iran, that the US goes through a wholesale depopulation in Howling Wilderness and break up of its remaining military while in Europe and Iran there are still intact large scale forces (i.e. see return to Europe and RDF modules) shows that the canon is flat out wrong

And since GDW is no longer around and there is no offical Twilight 2000 anymore, then why not make changes to correct the glaring errors in the game that turned many off of it in the first place?

Things like for instance no M88A1's in the game when the US was operating hundreds of them during that time period or the fact that the US, desperate for armored vehicles, just let at least 300 Sheridans sit and rust instead of pressing them back into service, or the simple fact that the TMI nuclear plant in Harrisburg, not hit by any nukes, is never mentioned in Alleghany Uprising and neither are several very important PA NG depots in the area (Indiantown Gap for instance)
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