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View Poll Results: You just captured a Soviet BTR-80 intact as your only transport | |||
Take the BTR and leave it marked as Soviet, hoping to sneak past Pact forces |
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20 | 35.09% |
Keep the vehicle and mark it somehow to show it's in American use (a flag or something) |
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33 | 57.89% |
Destroy it and look for somnething else |
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5 | 8.77% |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll |
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#1
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Your squad managed to escape Kaliz on foot. Now, several days later, you've managed to capture a Soviet BTR-80. You know there's both Warsaw Pact forces and the remnants of the 5th ID in the area. Do you:
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Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one. |
#2
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Abandon the vehicle.
Whichever sides color you display on the vehicle, the other will be the first you run into. If you display no colors, you'll run into both sides, each which assume you are on the other side. Whoever fires on you will have an AT weapon capable of destroying the vehicle. Better to go on foot. If I had to keep the vehicle, I'd go with no insignia on the vehicle at all. |
#3
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Keep it marked as Soviet and put a US flag you could yank down quick if needed
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"There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time." --General George S. Patton, Jr. Last edited by Dog 6; 12-14-2010 at 10:04 PM. |
#4
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Good question, Wes.
Since both sides would likely be using any vehicle they could get their hands on, including captured enemy vehicles, I think friend vs. foe recognition in the year 2000 would be a painfully complicated process. I'm sure both sides going into the Battle of Kalisz would have a few former enemy vehicles on their books. Would folks shoot first and ask questions later? Would they be extra cautious in the attempt to avoid a blue on blue incident? I don't know. I just read Kill Bin Laden and the Delta guys called off several airstrikes because they couldn't tell if their targets were friendly Muj or AQ. Not even their Afghan allies could tell themselves apart from the enemy at anything over 100m. Personally, I think I would be tempted to leave the BTR- or, for that matter, any vehicle, NATO or WTO- and E&E on foot, nice and sneaky like.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#5
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I took "Take the BTR and keep marked as Soviet," but on second thought, I think it might be better to mark it as American (or whatever nationality the PCs are), simply because death by fratricide is more tragic than death by enemy action. By no means, however, would I simply reject an intact vehicle by that stage of the game (no pun intended), unless it had little or no fuel or is in such horrible Wear condition that it's likely to break down any moment.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 12-14-2010 at 11:19 PM. Reason: A small addition |
#6
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The following presumes none of the previously mentioned in-game factors (wear, fuel) and metagame concerns (the GM will automatically screw you as soon as possible merely on principle) are present.
To a large degree, the answer depends on where you're going, what your supply situation is like, what the local threats are and where they are located, and so on. By summer 2000, captured vehicles were common so that's less of an issue, or rather, it's something so common different forces have experience in dealing with this problem. If you have a short distance to go and are sneaking through enemy lines, then traveling by foot is sufficient. In a couple days you're going to be safe and can hypothetically resupply. If you have a significant distance to travel, then vehicle travel is probably worth the risk. Assuming the idea is to make a run for Krakow in as few bounds as possible, then pursue some means of future sustenance, a vehicle allows for more flexibility in future operations. A large vehicle like the BTR can serve as a mobile base of operations, provide fire support, is a means to move salvage, etc. Tony |
#7
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Knowing my luck,
The BTR that I capture will have one of the engines burned out... It will have markings that indicate that that it was stolen from some Russian general who was using it to run his black market operation from, and the KGB have a "capture at all costs" order out on it... It will be the only BTR within 200km that requires a key to turn it on... That I capture a brand new BTR, with low milage, new tires, but no fuel, no lube oil and no coolant... That its preivous owner used it for driving around nuclear bomb craters because he knew that some stupid American would try to steal it and he wanted to leave something special behind to reward such stupidty... What can I say...."if it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all!" ![]()
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
#8
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I chose keep it as marked.
Why? Because the situation involves overwhelming numbers of Pact troops equipped with Pact gear. The US troops are by and large on the run and unlikely to be in any position to go on the offensive.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#9
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I went for keep it as marked for much the same reasons as Leg - I reckon you've more chance of running across WP forces than US, but I'd try and keep a US flag handy.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#10
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I can see the point about leaving the Soviet markings. Even if you wanted to change it you may not have the time or opportunity. Still, with US forces around you do have to be aware of potential fratricide, so maybe once out of the immediate area of Kalisz the Soviet markings could go back on. Tony |
#11
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I'm a little surprised that no one is mentioning the Geneva Convention rules regarding this. I guess no one expects them to be followed by either side.
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#12
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Keep it Soviet. 90% of the forces in the area are Pact and Americans will likely be looking to break contact. For the few Americans in the area, putting a TOW into a BTR that isn't causing them trouble is wasting assets, attracting attention and likely to create a non-usable BTR. I also don't have time for a lot of paint. I may lash some gear over the marking to make it less obvious before I roll out. Either way, I think the opportunity to put 100km between myself and Kalisz in an afternoon rather than a week is too tempting at that stage of the game. If it breaks down the next day, I'm still way better off. Even better, if I manage to get to the Markgravate or Krakow with the thing still working it's a huge asset.
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#13
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(And yes, I think soldiers will routinely violate the GC in 200, primarily because most left are bottom-of-the-barrel conscripts) |
#14
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The GC actually allows "false flag" operations such as concealing just who is inside the vehicle. The trick is that you are not allowed to fight while wearing the enemy uniform and yes, using the BTR weapons while flying Soviet colors would be considered violating the GC. Rolling up to a traffic control point and opening fire on the guards would be another violation. Using the BTR to skirt a Soviet position....this would be allowed.
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The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. |
#15
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I think that the answer to the poll question also depends on which direction the PCs intend to go. If they are headed generally west towards NATO lines, they'd have to worry about running into a rearguard or blocking position and getting lit up. If they're heading deeper behind enemy lines, say to Krakow, then the BTR might be a better choice.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#16
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With the situation at the end of the 5th ID, ANY direction is going to get you into contact with Pact forces.
As for the Geneva Convention, is there even a Geneva left, let alone the Hague international courts, etc, etc, etc? In 2000, Might makes Right.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#17
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Of course, but they are going to thin out somewhat to the west. Not so, to the east. And the PCs aren't likely going to know just how badly the 5th has been overrun and how deep they are behind enemy lines.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#18
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I voted to ignore it: if I am on the run I don't want attention, and armoured vehicles, and these days a BTR counts, draws attention. Now if it was a Ural truck or some UAZ's, then I'd snap them up in a heartbeat.
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#19
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Main reason I asked is I'm thinking of starting the 2nd chapter of the story I started in the Creative Writing section of the forums. The group consists of 5 US soldiers, 1 embeded reporter. Before they can capture the BTR, the only transport they have is a 1/2 ton pickup that's older than any of the characters.
My timeline is based on v1, but slightly different. I moved the general mayhem of nukes back a couple years, the Thanksgiving Day Massacre didn't happen until 1999. Most of the characters were in troop ships on their way to Europe at that time. They never actualy made it to Kaliz, the convoy they were part of was ambushed before they made it. They'll start in the town of Milicz, about 75-80 klicks southwest of Kaliz. Funny thing is I picked Milicz pretty much at random. I set up a Soviet patrol basing itself in som old castle ruins just outside of town. I looked the town on the internet and there really is a castle ruins outside the town. Pure serendipity.
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Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one. |
#20
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I believe the situation presented in the Ref's materials indicates the only practical path out of the Kalisz area is towards the south. Every other direction has litterally MASSES of Pact troops.
The BTR in my mind is a great vehicle for a T2K situation. With wheels it's capable of a decent speed without copious consumption of fuel. It's amphibious and has a decent cargo capacity (if somewhat limited by access but I don't thinkg anyone's going to want to load it with a forklift). In it's basic models it has reasonable firepower with 14.5mm KPV and smaller coax - in newer models this can be anything up to a light autocannon and potentially missiles. Protection is limited to small arms and shrapnel, but it's doubtful many PC groups are going to want to try the full frontal assault option very often. It's also able to be driven by almost anyone - you can drive a car, chances are you can drive the BTR (ie don't need TVD skill).
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#21
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Quote:
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#22
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Even most tanks are vulnerable to those weapons. A 40mm grenade has the potential to imobilise a tank with a hit to the suspension. A LAW, RPG, tank gun, etc is almost certain to give the crew a VERY bad headache. Even a HMG is potentially able to cause some issues with a lucky shot to the radio antenna, external cargo (god help them if they're stupid enough to have spare fuel and ammo strapped to the outside!)
In my mind a wheeled APC is possibly the best choice for the T2K envroment. This could be the BTR, a LAV-25, Bison, or any one of a number of similar vehicles. Most of the time the enemy are unlikely to want to waste using up their heavier weapons on such a lightly armoured vehicle, and usually the vehicles is able to stand up to small arms and the lighter explosive weapons (greandes, mortars, etc). Now lets look at a few other vehicles to compare: The Bradley or BMP class of tracked vehicle: heavy, good armament, chews fuel, might be amphibious, very likely to warrant a AT weapon. Tanks: very heavy, excellent arament, good protection, demolishes any fuel reserves in short order, stopped cold by most waterways, definite target for AT weapons, next to no cargo capacity. Trucks and other softskins: relatively mobile, generally no armament, generally decent fuel consumption, non-amphibious, no protection from even thrown rocks, destroyed by spitting on... Now, on a conventional battlefield, the wheeled APC is far from ideal, but for a behind the lines T2K type of scenario...
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#23
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IMHO, keep the BTR. The few T2K games I have played, the player characters where pretty much like most of the D&D charcters I ran into over the years...
We take anything that is not nailed down....We Carry Crowbars!!!! These hardy souls would strip anything that came their way on the proposition that having something now was much preferable to not having it later. Trade was ALWAYS an option, especially if you could score some ammo, food, adult beverages, female companionship...you get my point. Having a fairly large verhicle like a BTR would make it easier to get from point A to point B AND caryy all of that STUFF you liberated. If you could get access to fuel....all the better. |
#24
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If all you can expect to go up against is AKs and PKMs, then, by all means, go with the BTR. But even in 2000, RPGs are likely to be fairly common. Just one solid hit and you're toast. I mean, in our PbP, how many BTRs and BTR-type vehicles have the players killed? It's not that hard, and, besides my confusion with the side hit dice rule, I've been playing it by the book when it comes to vehicle damage. If you keep this up, I'm going to send a T-72 at you. ![]() Now, a LAV-25, that's a slightly different story. Slightly better armor protection and a whole lot more punch and versatility from the 25mm autocannon.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#25
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Keep it, have some kind of US markings (flag would work great) and obscure the Soviet ones. I probably wouldn't raise the flag until I got close to US lines, if that was the way I was heading.
It could be saleable in Krakow.
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My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988. |
#26
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I do agree that in a stand up fight the tank is the superior machine, however APCs aren't supposed to be involved in stand up fights. My understanding is that the moment heavy weapons are spotted the lighter armour is supposed to get the hell out of dodge and let the infantry deal with it, while perhaps providing longer range supporting fire. Even tanks aren't likely to hang around when the RPGs, etc start flying.
Armour is not supposed to close to a stones (grenade) throw with the enemy UNLESS there is absoutely no risk of of the enemy hitting it with an effective weapon. If the enemy only has small arms, then they can definitely be the battlefield bully, but otherwise their heavier and longer ranged machineguns, autocannons and the like should be used from a decent range and a preferably hull down position, and make the infantry earn their money. Armour is in my view a secondary protection to using the terrain, distance and infantry screen. Armour plate in a perfect battlefield should never have to stand up against an AT weapon. But I think the issue here isn't about what's better in a conventional fight, but what's better in what is essentially a survival situation - a lightly armed and armoured cargo carrier like the BTR which can blend in with the enemy, or walking.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#27
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Rae has a point in that in many ways, foot soldiers are going to be more survivable than an APC and infinitely less conspicuous. The main problem with being on foot is that, well, it's slow, and food is going to be a real concern after a short time. If the plan is to make their way west through enemy lines, then the BTR would have to be abandoned, sooner or later (probably sooner). All around, I'd still probably go with the BTR. It's big, acceptable off-road/amphibious characteristics, not too fuel inefficient, provides some protection and a heavy weapon. And it's not the kind of vehicle someone would probably use an AT weapon to take out unless it's a direct threat. weswood, Great idea for a game! I'm not surprised you lucked into placing a castle where there's one in real life, that whole area was part of a line of late Renaissance fortifications and castles. Hard to shoot a crossbow and not hit some kind of castle. Tony |
#28
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I've also got another smallish castle/keep in my world. The marauder gang Sgt Cutler hangs with in Krakow (can't remember the name right now) has "country caches) of stolen gear. One of these is a bug out stash in the booby trapped ruins of a small keep.
__________________
Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one. |
#29
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Like much of Europe, there are a lot of castles to be found in Poland.
This was my starting list castles in Poland As for the original question, hell yes I'd take the BTR-80 and I'd keep it marked in Soviet colours until I thought I was clear of WarPac troops. As soon as I thought I was near friendlies I'd mark it as NATO. The reason's pretty basic - a second class ride beats a first class walk every time. |
#30
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It was an interesting problem on the Eastern Front for both sides. Even the Germans fighting in France would tend to take and use anything they have captured to good use against their former owner if they get a chance. |
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