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Old 11-28-2008, 04:28 PM
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Default Inspiration from the Israelis

Here are a couple of things that the Israelis have done in order to make their armored vehicles more survivable and effective against enemy infantry. Since the U.S. (and others) followed their lead and adapted Israeli Blazer reactive armor after witnessing its effectiveness in the '82 "Peace for Gallilee" operation, it makes sense that the U.S. would continue to flatter the Israeli's by immitating their later innovations.

"Toga" add-on armor for the M113. Toga consists of perforated steel screens fitted a couple of centimeters away from the M113's thin aluminum armor. Although the M113's armor is rated to provide protection from 7.62mm fire, Toga screens are proven against 14.5mm AP ammo. Although they won't stop RPG rockets, they will limit post-penetration damage by narrowing the blast radius of the rocket's HEAT charge within the vehicle.

Roof-mounted 60mm mortars. Since their close call in the Yom Kippur war, Israeli MBTs and APCs have carried (and continue to do so) 60mm mortars mounted on their roofs for use against enemy infantry. In T2K, as MBTs became more rare due to attrition and lack of replacements, the primary threat to survivors would be enemy infantry AT teams. A 60mm mortar would allow AFVs more flexibility in engaging enemy infantry as well as provide indirect fire support to friendly infantry.

Infantry cross-training. "In the IDF, all infantry and mechanized have dual and sometimes triple weapons, medical and communications tasks. Besides their personal weapons, each man is trained (and required) to carry and use a second piece of equipment: e.g. a field radio, 66mm LAW rocket, M203 40mm grenade launcher, Dragon A/T missile, A/T rifle grenades, FN MAG light machine gun, 52mm light mortar, medical equipment or... a Soviet-made RPG-7." (Armies in Lebanon 1982-84, Samuel M. Katz, Osprey Publishing, London 1985).

Most PCs seem to do this last bit anyway, but here is an RL precedent. With high infantry casualties and a resulting surplus of infantry weapons, coupled with wider mission requirements, this sort of thing would become de-riguer.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:57 PM
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Interesting thesis. Given how bad things are in T2K, most of that would be commonplace. And most likely starting in the CENTCOM AO. The Toga armor hasn't been used on our 113s, but the RPG screens from Vietnam have made a comeback, with Strykers, 113s, Hummers, and the occasional Bradley being so outfitted.
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:35 PM
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Here's a question. It's a bit OT for T2K but I figured one of you guys would know the answer.

Why do the Israelis predominantly use the CAR-15/M4? They can and have manufactured their own assault rifles yet most Israeli infantry nowadays carry the M-4. Are they manufactured locally. Did the U.S. cut them a huge deal? I can't imagine importing American weapons would be more cost effective than making their own.

The Tavor is by all accounts pretty sweet yet it seems like it's not being issued in any number.

What gives?
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:51 PM
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Raellus
uncle sugars pockets are deep. The Izzy's have been using M16A1, M16A2 and Car-15's for a long time. Now they are getting newer M4 rifles what is neat though they tend to keep the older rifles and adapt them adding newer accessories as they obtain them. So its possible to see an old A1 with a RAS and forward grip, optical sights ect.

The Israelis haven't been making the Galil for quite a while now and have surplussed many of them or sold them abroad. I had heard some tank units where still issued them but that was a while ago. As for the Tavor I havent seen many pictures of them in the hands of soldiers.

Its hard to say exactly with iseal as far as standardizatiIon of weapons goes. As recently as the 2006 invaion of lebanon I saw a pic of an M1a1 carbine and RPD being fired side by side.

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Old 11-30-2008, 12:01 AM
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Israel has a lot of good ideas!......I would love to be in either of their Foxholes.
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:09 AM
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From the look on their faces, I'm not that sure.
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Old 11-30-2008, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
From the look on their faces, I'm not that sure.
I could tame 'em. After successfully converting several lesbians to hetero (well at least while they were with me) I reckon I could handle those two fine.

Obviously I also think that a positive self image is important
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:09 AM
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Targ

I am glad that you and I both have more than a healthy outlook on our appearance.....I have never heard anyone say I had poor self esteem.

However I do regret causing this thread to spiral off of topic...and is unlikely to ever return....sorry it was 1AM and I was tired when I posted the pic. I rather liked the off color pun though

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Old 11-30-2008, 09:10 AM
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LoL.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother in Arms
Raellus
uncle sugars pockets are deep. The Izzy's have been using M16A1, M16A2 and Car-15's for a long time.

The Israelis haven't been making the Galil for quite a while now and have surplussed many of them or sold them abroad. I had heard some tank units where still issued them but that was a while ago. As for the Tavor I havent seen many pictures of them in the hands of soldiers.
That's the weird thing. In Lebanon, in '82, front line units were equipped with the various models of the Galil while many reserve units carried M-16A1s. It seems like a step backwards.

So, what you're saying BIA is that the Israelis are getting a deep discount on U.S. weapons?
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:01 PM
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Raellus

We don't just equip them with rifles either they get all sorts of war material from the US very cheaply.

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