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Old 12-21-2018, 12:37 PM
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Default Early Phase Cache Upgrades

When The Morrow Project put its people into the Bolt Holes they had been through extensive training on their weapons and equipment. I wonder though if The Project ever thought as new issues came out to revisit already sealed Bolt Holes and upgrade the gear?

Say a team is issued with M14s. Well and good, they know how to strip, maintain and clean them. Would Project armourers think to upgrade those M14s with picatinny rails and sighting mods? How about new armour mixed in with the old stuff?
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:59 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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You can actually do three different upgrades, depending on when you start your version and when you start the war.

First version could be frozen in the early 1960s.

A second upgrade in the late 70s, early 80s.

A perhaps a late 90s upgrade, sort of a last minute, emergency deployment of newly developed tech.
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:08 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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This is one of the many reasons I always assume that BEM was able to provide the approximate date of the war, say within a year. No need to upgrade, no sending people into the nuclear aftermath with gear that is either outdated or unfamiliar. This is no scenario to tackle with less than the best gear, or anything you cannot pick up and use on day 1.
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Old 12-22-2018, 07:18 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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For those that don't have 4e, it specifies global cache upgrades in 1987, 1999 and 2013.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2018, 07:25 AM
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So we are saying that all caches are upgraded? That either no M14s are left in caches before The Big Event or they are brought up to a 2013 standard?
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:30 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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I dislike the idea of replacing everything a team has trained on with possibly unfamiliar weapons and/or equipment.

I think the 1987 update would be more extensive as that's when the fusion units and lasers were added. Per 4e, this included a global update of not only the caches but boltholes as well.

Subsequent updates wouldn't have been as extensive both for the training impact and security issues.

As a side note, 4e even includes a table to randomly generate the era of cache equipment so there does appear to be some intent to possibly give a team equipment they've never seen before.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:32 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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The problems of replacing equipment gets even bigger when you consider people being used gear that they simply don't understand. Give a guy from the 60s, trained on the M14, a laser weapon that he needs to maintain and operate, and odds are good that a few dozen innocent people are going to be permanently blinded. And god help them if there is a problem with that fusion reactor and they're sitting there under fire trying to fix something that looks nothing like a gas engine.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:52 AM
Desert Mariner Desert Mariner is offline
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Or do you create a logistical and security nightmare and wake the teams on a rotational basis so they can be trained on their new toys?
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Old 01-03-2019, 02:46 PM
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For a change of pace playing a 1975 team with a 2013 stockpile would be interesting. Trying to play a person who missed the Information Age by a large amount confronted my modern electronics would be fun
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:00 PM
.45cultist .45cultist is offline
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Perhaps a clerical error means a Team and half it's caches are missed in the upgrades, so they can still feed their older gear.
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Old 01-03-2019, 03:08 PM
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I am so tempted to run a game with a bunch of 'Paranoia'-Style clerical errors.

"You open the cache to see that it is entirely filled with converse shoes. Size 8, left foot only."
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:31 PM
.45cultist .45cultist is offline
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Also, I think the early teams would have been using AR-10's instead of M14's, or at least along side them. SMG's might be M1 Thompsons, M3A1's and M1911A1 sidearms prior to adoption of the 9X19 systems. The 9MM sidearms in 4E are marked "1979", so that means the very first 1960's teams COULD have .45ACP firearms.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .45cultist View Post
Also, I think the early teams would have been using AR-10's instead of M14's, or at least along side them. SMG's might be M1 Thompsons, M3A1's and M1911A1 sidearms prior to adoption of the 9X19 systems. The 9MM sidearms in 4E are marked "1979", so that means the very first 1960's teams COULD have .45ACP firearms.
It would be interesting if they started issuing HK UMP SMGs in the 2000s to utilise all that .45 ammo
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Old 01-16-2019, 01:27 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChalkLine View Post
It would be interesting if they started issuing HK UMP SMGs in the 2000s to utilise all that .45 ammo
Hope no one wakes up to an emergency when their weapons are unfamiliar, require cleaning and assembly. I've watched people struggle to assemble weapons they owned and knew, I wouldn't want to do it to an unfamiliar gun in a life and death situation.
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Old 01-16-2019, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Hope no one wakes up to an emergency when their weapons are unfamiliar, require cleaning and assembly. I've watched people struggle to assemble weapons they owned and knew, I wouldn't want to do it to an unfamiliar gun in a life and death situation.
That is very true, but allowing weapons such as the HK 417 and the HK UMP go in with 2013 sleepers means they don't have to go through all the old ammo caches and upgrade them.

Now I think of it, the 'Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193' adopted in the early sixties may not play well with M4s designed in the late nineties so the 5.56mm ammo may need to be changed out as well
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Old 01-16-2019, 09:23 AM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChalkLine View Post
Now I think of it, the 'Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193' adopted in the early sixties may not play well with M4s designed in the late nineties so the 5.56mm ammo may need to be changed out as well
There are considerations, as this delightful document will tell:

https://www.dau.mil/cop/ammo/DAU%20S...ith%20Ammo.pdf
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:33 AM
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Overall, I think it's a really bad idea to switch gear on teams if they haven't been trained on the new equipment. Unless you are specifically making it part of the gameplay to mess around with PCs or even as a storyline plot for some NPCs, I feel that the Project would not be so enamoured of new gear that they would upgrade a team's gear without the team having the training to use it. I like to believe the Project wasn't that dumb - but that's just me!

It's very different if you upgrade a team from say M16A1s and CAR-15s to M16A2/3/4 and M4 Carbines because it's plainly obvious that the "upgrades" are still part of the family and familiarity with the earlier models will translate to the newer models. But it's a far greater problem (and potentially fatal) to upgrade a team from say M14s to M16A2s if the team has no training what-so-ever in the new rifles.

In regards to the differences between the older M193 5.56mm and the new SS109 5.56mm, the newer version requires a faster barrel twist compared to the older round. SS109 fired from a .223 or M193 barrel will not perform as well as advertised. It's a major fail in Twilight: 2000 that 5.56mm is treated as just one cartridge without regard to the specific differences between the M193 and the SS109.
For a quick & dirty fix, I made the the M193 5.56mm have less recoil but less penetration and slightly less range than the SS109 5.56mm. Some of this is admittedly subjective, as I based my ideas on my own impressions of firing both rounds in semi- and auto- through M16A1 (M193) and M16A2 & F88 (SS109).

If you don't want to worry about the difference and the changes that would be needed to weapon stats, then all well and good. But if you do and want to take account of the difference and you want to upgrade teams from earlier 5.56mm weapions to M16A2/3/4 and M4/M4A1 weapons then you need to upgrade their 5.56mm ammo as well. The M193 will not perform as well with the faster rifling. Going from memory here, the SS109 was designed to penetrate light body armour but the M193 was not and so the ballistics are very different between the two (hence the faster rifling twist required for the SS109 round).
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