Drozd/ERA

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Kaktus, the precursor to Relikt, had almost finished testing by 2000

True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War. Kaktus presumably would have been somewhere between Kontakt-5 and Relikt in effectiveness. If it was halfway in-between, it'd be 150 AV vs HEAT and 110 vs KE, adding 2.5-3 tonnes to vehicle mass.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War. Kaktus presumably would have been somewhere between Kontakt-5 and Relikt in effectiveness. If it was halfway in-between, it'd be 150 AV vs HEAT and 110 vs KE, adding 2.5-3 tonnes to vehicle mass.

Definitely the BMP-3 in lesser numbers. The Objekt 640 was pretty much sorted but was spread over too many republics. I reckon it's a GM call.
The APC and terminator versions would never have been built so if you saw them both vehicles would be in the same unit, a scary proposition especially as they're both thermal equipped. Their survival rate would be tiny though.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Definitely the BMP-3 in lesser numbers. The Objekt 640 was pretty much sorted but was spread over too many republics. I reckon it's a GM call.
The APC and terminator versions would never have been built so if you saw them both vehicles would be in the same unit, a scary proposition especially as they're both thermal equipped. Their survival rate would be tiny though.

The nail in the coffin for Ob.640 was the First Chechen War, where the poor performance of the T-80 convinced the Armor Directorate to cancel all gas turbine developments.

I suppose one other possible platform for Kaktus if Ob.640 had entered service would have been the BTR-T for use in urban combat over the BMP-3. The BMPT Terminator was just getting prototyped in the late 90s, while the BTR-T was a (relatively) quick and simple conversion of a T-55 to a heavy APC like Achzarit. The actual BTR-T uses Kontakt-5, but I could see them being used like the BMPT, with one or two BTR-T providing anti-infantry protection to one or two Ob.640 and being outfitted with Kaktus instead of Kontakt to simplify logistics and improve protection.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

The nail in the coffin for Ob.640 was the First Chechen War, where the poor performance of the T-80 convinced the Armor Directorate to cancel all gas turbine developments.

I suppose one other possible platform for Kaktus if Ob.640 had entered service would have been the BTR-T for use in urban combat over the BMP-3. The BMPT Terminator was just getting prototyped in the late 90s, while the BTR-T was a (relatively) quick and simple conversion of a T-55 to a heavy APC like Achzarit. The actual BTR-T uses Kontakt-5, but I could see them being used like the BMPT, with one or two BTR-T providing anti-infantry protection to one or two Ob.640 and being outfitted with Kaktus instead of Kontakt to simplify logistics and improve protection.

Kaktus is the only 'soviet' ERA that can be placed on a vehicle with less than 30mm of 350BHN RHA equivalent (Soviet armour was 550 BHN so it's about 1.3x equivalent armour) so it can go on much lighter vehicles. This is why it ended up on the BMP-3

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Kaktus is the only 'soviet' ERA that can be placed on a vehicle with less than 30mm of 350BHN RHA equivalent (Soviet armour was 550 BHN so it's about 1.3x equivalent armour) so it can go on much lighter vehicles. This is why it ended up on the BMP-3

I finally found some information on Kaktus from a NII Stali booklet, and got lucky because I only found it doing a search for 4S24, since that's the code used by the manufacturer for that ERA's blocks. They report that it's the same effectiveness as 4S20, just with half the explosive. 4S20 is Kontakt-1 (4S22 is Kontakt-5 and 4S23 is Relikt, just for reference). So, 80 points of AV vs HEAT and no additional armor against KE.

[Vespers War]

I have another "does anyone have any information about this" question. While looking at old Soviet prototypes, a writeup of Object 490 mentions it was supposed to have a "Shtandart" active protection system. This is a royal pain to search for online because it means Standard. I've seen mentions of it in discussion of Object 195 (the "T-95") as well, but that's all I've found. Does anyone know of any technical information about the system?

The Object 490 writeup also mentions it was intended to use Gofr ERA. Allegedly Gofr is the basis for Serbia's ERO-19 ERA on the M-84AS1, and (again allegedly) it's roughly equivalent to Relikt.

[Higgipedia]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I've seen mentions of it in discussion of Object 195 (the "T-95") as well, but that's all I've found. Does anyone know of any technical information about the system?

I don't but maybe it's the Arena system that replaced the Drozd system or the Afghanit system that replaced Arena.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Higgipedia

I don't but maybe it's the Arena system that replaced the Drozd system or the Afghanit system that replaced Arena.

It's possible they're developmentally linked, but Shtandart was mounted totally differently from other Soviet APS systems. Where Drozd, Arena, and Afganit all use tube launchers mounted under the turret, Shtandart on Object 490 had 10 tubes mounted vertically along the rear hull in two rows of five on either side of a 30mm secondary turret, six on the horizontal surface of the hull rear facing rearward*, and ten more scattered around the hull sides and front corners. It clearly wasn't operating on the same principles as Arena or Afganit that slew the turret to face the projectile and then fire directly at it, since none of the launchers were on mobile mounts.

I did find an allegation that it could intercept at least some tank rounds, which Arena can't do (and the jury is out on whether Afganit can), but that seems very questionable for a system developed in the 1980s. Regardless of whether it could intercept tank rounds, the vertical mounts would have been useful given the development of top-attack missiles like TOW-2B, Tank Breaker/Javelin, NLAW, and Spike.

*the tank was designed to drive backwards during road marches, so that's less absurd than it originally sounds since ambush attacks would have a higher prevalence of attacks on the forward-facing rear of the tank.

[Raellus]

I'm not sure how this one got past me, but the Russians have fitted ERA to cope cages, first appearing on the battlefield back in April (if not before).

-

[unipus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, a small number of BMP-3s were already in service by 1989.

[Ursus Maior]

Just barely, though. In 1987, the army of the USSR received 12 pre-production models of the BMP-3. For the year 1990 IISS' Military Balance notes "some BMP-3" (p. 35) in service, for the years 1994-1995 the relevant volume notes 17 BMP-3 (p. 112) in service for Russia. However, by 2000 around 1,000 BMP-3 had been produced, with 900 going abroad (600 alone to United Arab Emirates) and just 120 serving in the Russian armed forces (http://www.military-today.com/apc/bmp_3.htm and https://www.army-technology.com/projects/bmp-3/).

However, these numbers show that, money influx provided, a resurgent USSR could have reached several hundreds possibly more than 1,000 BMP-3s produced by outbreak of the Twilight War.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

However, these numbers show that, money influx provided, a resurgent USSR could have reached several hundreds possibly more than 1,000 BMP-3s produced by outbreak of the Twilight War.

And the single BMP-2 plant was building 1,800 vehicles per year of the BMP-2M variant at the same time

[ChalkLine]

I may have been wrong and there is actually yet another Soviet ERA in-period, this the Tifon ERA created expressly for the BTR-90. However I've only found one reference for it and have zero statistics for it.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

I may have been wrong and there is actually yet another Soviet ERA in-period, this the Tifon ERA created expressly for the BTR-90. However I've only found one reference for it and have zero statistics for it.

The BTR-90 was first displayed in 1994 but didn't enter (very limited) production until 2004, so its ERA is probably outside any GDW-era timeline, though it might fit for T2k13. AFAIK, the only production was ~135-140 built from 2004-2011 that saw service only with the MVD with limited testing by other units.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

The BTR-90 was first displayed in 1994 but didn't enter (very limited) production until 2004, so its ERA is probably outside any GDW-era timeline, though it might fit for T2k13. AFAIK, the only production was ~135-140 built from 2004-2011 that saw service only with the MVD with limited testing by other units.

Well, it's certainly fine for 1st edition. As the Russkis were stone broke in the 1990s and early 2000s but in the game they have to rearm for an actual war so I think it should definitely be in the game but your mileage may vary.

Regardless, there was this enigmatic ERA designed in the 1990s available for manufacture but as I said I can't find any info for it at all, even in Russian-language sources.