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Old 06-24-2019, 09:24 AM
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chico20854 chico20854 is offline
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Default Operation Advent Crown

I've put together the following history of the NATO 1997 Offensive into Poland:
(link here, pdf attached below, maps here, to be on my website soon.)

I built off the fragment of history in Black Madonna and took what I could from the vehicle guides, but most of it is my own creation. Jason Weiser and Fighting Flamingo provided some very helpful comments, so thanks to them for that!

Feel free to use it as you like and share it with others!

Enjoy!

-Chico
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File Type: pdf Operation Advent Crown.pdf (404.7 KB, 2 views)
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I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...

Last edited by chico20854; 07-15-2019 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:45 AM
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Raellus Raellus is offline
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Nice to see you again, Chico. I'm really looking forward to reading this.
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Old 06-24-2019, 02:20 PM
Ewan Ewan is online now
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Had a quick look at it and it's impressive.
Think I might be going back a couple of years to 1997 for a small campaign before the nukes start to fly.
Thank you for your hard work in putting it together.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:50 PM
stilleto69 stilleto69 is offline
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Chico, you're back. I really missed your articles. Excellent work as always.
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Old 06-25-2019, 05:02 PM
cawest cawest is online now
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where did you get the part about buying equipment from Egypt and Warsaw Pac compliant ammo and weapons? This might be helpful for the African books.
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Old 06-25-2019, 06:35 PM
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chico20854 chico20854 is offline
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Glad to stop by when I can!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cawest View Post
where did you get the part about buying equipment from Egypt and Warsaw Pac compliant ammo and weapons? This might be helpful for the African books.
I just remember reading in Jane's in the 80s and 90s that Egypt manufactured Soviet small arms, D-30s and ZU-23-2s and ammo for them. And when I was a kid the only AKs that got imported into the US were Egyptian. Given the tremendous need of the Chinese, with their industry under air bombardment, it would make sense for them to try to buy as much compatible equipment and supplies as they could. That avoids having to retrain and re-equip some units. Once the war widens and the NVA also needs ammo and equipment resupply it likewise makes sense to buy it from anywhere they can find it. Other likely sources like Jugoslavia are combatants and wouldn't have any production to spare.
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I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:27 PM
antimedic antimedic is offline
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Was Warsaw the longest siege of the war in Europe?
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:04 PM
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Was Warsaw the longest siege of the war in Europe?
Yes. Its the one most prominently mentioned in canon. The other contender would be Berlin (described as like a second Stalingrad in Black Madonna), but the Pact couldn't besiege the city, secure the local area against a hostile local population and fight off NATO simultaneously. Krakow, Lodz and Poznan are all too intact to have suffered an extended siege.

Actually, given the (relatively) low NATO troop density and extended NATO supply lines I was trying to figure out why it took the Pact over 2 months of tactical nuclear warfare to lift the siege of Warsaw (first nuc July 9, siege lifted September 15). Its about 120 miles from Brest to Warsaw, an average of under two miles a day. You would think that any time a NATO unit set up a strong blocking position the Soviets would drop a nuc on it, and if the NATO troops dispersed enough to make that ineffective they are left vulnerable to infiltration. NATO wasn't that efficient in hunting down delivery systems (see ODS Scud hunting!) Part of the reason I ended the document where I did was because I couldn't/didn't want to figure out the tactical/operational nuclear exchange.
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I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854 View Post
Yes. Its the one most prominently mentioned in canon. The other contender would be Berlin (described as like a second Stalingrad in Black Madonna), but the Pact couldn't besiege the city, secure the local area against a hostile local population and fight off NATO simultaneously. Krakow, Lodz and Poznan are all too intact to have suffered an extended siege.

Actually, given the (relatively) low NATO troop density and extended NATO supply lines I was trying to figure out why it took the Pact over 2 months of tactical nuclear warfare to lift the siege of Warsaw (first nuc July 9, siege lifted September 15). Its about 120 miles from Brest to Warsaw, an average of under two miles a day. You would think that any time a NATO unit set up a strong blocking position the Soviets would drop a nuc on it, and if the NATO troops dispersed enough to make that ineffective they are left vulnerable to infiltration. NATO wasn't that efficient in hunting down delivery systems (see ODS Scud hunting!) Part of the reason I ended the document where I did was because I couldn't/didn't want to figure out the tactical/operational nuclear exchange.
It may be that the nukes were used sparingly at first - i.e. we use one here you use one back and it took a while to get to where Poland got nuked as badly as it did - plainly by the time the US and Germans pulled back from Warsaw there werent any more restraint on nukes - i.e. they basically blew the city away
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:04 PM
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There's also when you think about it, the nature of what the nuclear targets are? Chico and I looked and discovered that they calculated that it took 5-6 5kt tactical devices to do acceptable damage to a single tank battalion. It takes a lot less, and does more long term damage if you go after the rear area services, so it may be a case of more warheads are being flung at the Pact and NATO rear areas. This has the effect of slowing down the Pact advance to a pace that NATO is somehow managing to retreat faster than the Pact can catch them. (though the fact that it still takes the Pact 2 MONTHS to relieve Warsaw does call that into question?).

Viewed in this lens, the NATO retreat makes a LOT of sense, as if you're losing your tactical/operational supply net in the field, it makes sense to retreat to where it's intact, Germany. And the pace of the Pact advance makes sense. Look at the pattern of Soviet advances in WWII, they'd advance for a bit, make great gains, and then peter out when they outran their supply infrastructure (Now yes, this doesn't account for nukes, modern smart munitions, and the fact they're advancing over an atrocious Polish road net that's been fought over twice and now nuked once?) Maybe it's just that simple, the road net is such a mess, it cannot support either army very well?
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Old 06-28-2019, 12:27 AM
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I'll add my voice to the section about the road network.
The quality of any roads in different areas of Poland can vary from average to well below poor.
Drivers in northern Poland generally avoid puddles on the road when they see them, the attitude is that you never know how deep or wide the pothole is, so you go around it to avoid damaging your vehicle.
I saw potholes repaired by simply dumping rubble in them and then covering them over with asphalt. In other places they were repaired by pouring concrete into the hole or by using paving bricks. Over time the area around the repaired section degraded to the point where you no longer had a hole in the road but a higher section that was effectively now a speedbump (or sump remover depending on how low the vehicle was!)

So it's not just the quality but also the consistency of the roads that you have to worry about. Saying that some road repairs were 'slapdash' is probably being kind.
The road quality & consistency did appear to improve the further south I went, I vaguely remember the roads in Krakow where decent, far better than many of the roads I saw in Warsaw and further north.
With several months of heavy traffic I believe most of the roads useful for the military will be severely degraded and only off-road capable vehicles will be able to use them.
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