RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-02-2020, 04:46 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default Twilight Spain

I'm going to be focusing much of my campaign around Spain/The Iberian Penninsula. I am creating this thread to brainstorm my ideas in order to refine the work I'm doing.

A lot of this project comes from the backstory of one of the players. His character, a US Army Ranger, met a female Spanish staff officer before the war broke out, and they had fallen in love and now he wants to find her and either stay with her or bring her back to his home state in Rhode Island. I liked this story arc and decided something could be done with it.

The main source for Spain is Mediterranean Cruise and the Twilight timeline for V1 and V2.2.

Spanish Nuclear Targets
Madrid (Industrial center and capital)
Gibraltar
San Roque Refinery (near Gibraltar)
Santa Cruz de Tenerife Refinery (Canary Islands)

Spanish Army Order of Battle
South:
II Brigade (Malaga Coast/Anadusia)
VI Brigade (Andalusia interior)

North:
V Brigade (Galcia)
X Brigade (Madrid region)
XII Brigade (Valencia)
XI Brigade (Badajoz Province)

Spanish Army Small Arms

(WIP)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-02-2020, 07:25 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

As a point of trivia that might actually be useful: -
Spain is one of the world's largest producers of olive oil (in the 2000s it's something like 40+% of the world's total production if I remember right) with Andalusia being the main region for olive oil.

And from something I read somewhere on the net, it's apparently also the least densely populated nation in Europe - so lots of open land in the rural areas.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:02 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
As a point of trivia that might actually be useful: -
Spain is one of the world's largest producers of olive oil (in the 2000s it's something like 40+% of the world's total production if I remember right) with Andalusia being the main region for olive oil.

And from something I read somewhere on the net, it's apparently also the least densely populated nation in Europe - so lots of open land in the rural areas.
Yeah, Spain's roughly 50% of olive oil production for the last couple years. Close to 70% of their production comes from Jaen province, which is in Andalusia (the rest of Andalusia produces 5% of Spain's olive oil).

Spain's also a leading producer of oranges, mandarins, and onions, and is usually second to Italy for lemons, limes, grapefruit, and tomatoes. There are also massive vineyards, and by the mid-80s Spain had gone from a grain importer to a grain exporter.

Spain also had around 15,000 fishing vessels in the mid-80s, with about 2,000 being deep water ships and the rest being coastal craft. One-third of the EC's fishermen were Spaniards.
__________________
The poster formerly known as The Dark

The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:42 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,749
Default

Yes!

I just read a couple of books about the Spanish Civil War. I've got tome thoughts about what Spain might look like in the v1 timeline.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-03-2020, 12:31 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,772
Default

Hmm, apparently it makes pretty good biodiesel, however this is rare mainly because it's expensive and more financially beneficial to use for other purposes.
That may change of course in T2K.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:38 AM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,749
Default

I think the Catalans and Basques would make a play for autonomy/independence during the Twilight War. With Madrid nuked, I don't see any way of stopping separatists from achieving their goals, short of armed force. But would there even be a central government around to order such thing? Would most Spaniards have the stomach for that? Probably not.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus

Last edited by Raellus; 05-03-2020 at 11:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-03-2020, 11:58 AM
Rainbow Six's Avatar
Rainbow Six Rainbow Six is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 1,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield View Post

Spanish Nuclear Targets
Madrid (Industrial center and capital)
Gibraltar
San Roque Refinery (near Gibraltar)
Santa Cruz de Tenerife Refinery (Canary Islands)
Minor point, but Gibraltar isn't Spanish. It's British Sovereign territory.
__________________
A collection of articles written for the Twilight 2000 Role Playing Game

http://www.twilight2000files.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-03-2020, 02:47 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
Minor point, but Gibraltar isn't Spanish. It's British Sovereign territory.
I expect that would remain the case only so long as the British are able to project power overseas.
__________________
The poster formerly known as The Dark

The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-03-2020, 06:54 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

Considering that it has a permanent British population (military and civilian) and has elements stationed there from all three of the British Armed Forces, it's unlikely to be completely ignored by the British even if they can't project power overseas - until it gets nuked that is.
It plays a significant role not simply by controlling access to the Mediterranean but in British military communications in the Med and Northern Africa (both of which are highly likely the reason it gets a nuke in the first place)

It's not self-sufficient but it has a fairly healthy relationship with Spain in terms of purchasing goods & services from Spain and also employing Spanish locals.
With that in mind and as a bastion of British military force in the region it's likely to be attractive to Spanish people in the vicinity as a refuge from lawlessness etc. etc. - until it gets that nuclear warhead or two.

I'm inclined to think that after being treated to a nuke, there wouldn't be much left worth worrying about so that the British government could safely ignore it (even to the point of forgetting about it completely).
But the reason I mention all of the above is that, as long as any attacks don't render it completely destroyed or uninhabitable, Gibraltar makes an interesting adventure location that could be expanded into something akin to the Free City of Krakow (with the bonus of having waterborne adventures)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:54 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,772
Default

From the bit of research I've done, unless directly hit with a nuke, Gibraltar should still be operational in 2000. During WWII, still decades before tunnelling was completed (1968), it was able to house 16,000 men with supplies for 16 months. It's internal volume has only increased since then, with measures installed to minimise damage from nearby nukes. Not sure occupants would survive a direct hit, but it'd still be a better chance than almost anywhere else on the planet besides a few purpose built shelters.
Some of the WWII tunnels have had to be closed for safety reasons (speed of tunnelling rather than longevity was the priority), but if the space was really needed, I'm sure some of those areas could be made a bit safer and used as storage/refugee shelter.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:59 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
I think the Catalans and Basques would make a play for autonomy/independence during the Twilight War. With Madrid nuked, I don't see any way of stopping separatists from achieving their goals, short of armed force. But would there even be a central government around to order such thing? Would most Spaniards have the stomach for that? Probably not.
I'm going with the idea of a nominal government, but that the country is actually balkanized, with some parts in anarchy, others devastated, and the rest in cantonments.

In general, what I have concocted is the idea that the Royal Family and Prime Minister were evacuated somewhere, but if they are contacting anyone, it seems to be from some bunker that no one is actually physically in touch with. The main central government figure is the Minister of the Interior, who gives orders in the name of the prewar government.

My campaign will also detail three military cantonments, one surviving civilian government provincial capital, and a number of surviving communities struggling to keep going. Separatists will largely be in the same boat, being more focused on surviving and stockpiling goods than anything else.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-03-2020, 11:00 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Considering that it has a permanent British population (military and civilian) and has elements stationed there from all three of the British Armed Forces, it's unlikely to be completely ignored by the British even if they can't project power overseas - until it gets nuked that is.
It plays a significant role not simply by controlling access to the Mediterranean but in British military communications in the Med and Northern Africa (both of which are highly likely the reason it gets a nuke in the first place)

It's not self-sufficient but it has a fairly healthy relationship with Spain in terms of purchasing goods & services from Spain and also employing Spanish locals.
With that in mind and as a bastion of British military force in the region it's likely to be attractive to Spanish people in the vicinity as a refuge from lawlessness etc. etc. - until it gets that nuclear warhead or two.

I'm inclined to think that after being treated to a nuke, there wouldn't be much left worth worrying about so that the British government could safely ignore it (even to the point of forgetting about it completely).
But the reason I mention all of the above is that, as long as any attacks don't render it completely destroyed or uninhabitable, Gibraltar makes an interesting adventure location that could be expanded into something akin to the Free City of Krakow (with the bonus of having waterborne adventures)
Yes, Gibraltar is British, and should have been identified as such. Trying to work out what if anything would have survived. I know there are tunnels beneath it, and I'm wondering if there would be a bunker that would still be operational.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-03-2020, 11:02 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
As a point of trivia that might actually be useful: -
Spain is one of the world's largest producers of olive oil (in the 2000s it's something like 40+% of the world's total production if I remember right) with Andalusia being the main region for olive oil.

And from something I read somewhere on the net, it's apparently also the least densely populated nation in Europe - so lots of open land in the rural areas.
Thanks for noting that one. While I had been researching Spanish agriculture, I had not known the bolded part.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-04-2020, 08:43 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,476
Default

I have Med Cruise and have played it too back in college - the V1 canon from the module includes both info on Gibraltar and Spain

Spain first

"CONDITIONS IN SPAIN

Despite the urging of both sides, Spain, a member of NATO, maintained a policy of neutrality throughout the war. When the United States entered the war in 1996, the Spanish government closed American bases within its territory (the U.S. naval base at Rota was the most important of these), and denied passage rights to American military ships and aircraft.

With the nuclear strikes, however, the refineries and oil processing facilities of Spain, like those of other neutral countries, were attacked to deny them to the enemy. Taking advantage of the disorder which followed the nuclear attacks, Basque and Catalan separatists soon entered into open revolt against the government in Madrid, and a low-level civil war began.

Between these revolts and the civil unrest caused by the world-wide depression of 1997-2000, the Spanish government was placed under increasing strain, and it was unable to hold onto the areas in revolt. The area of the western Pyrenees is under Basque control; Catalonia (roughly the area from the eastern Pyrenees south to the latitude of Valencia) is effectively independent as well.

The Spanish government nominally controls the rest of the country, but this control is limited to sporadic antimarauder sweeps by the army or the Guardia Civil (a paramilitary national police force).

In 1999, a military coup overthrew the constitutional monarchy, but they were unable to reunite the country. Nominally, the junta of generals controls the whole country, but they exercise government control effectively only within the range of their rifles."


Given that Madrid was most likely NOT nuked (i.e. the govt area itself) but the refineries and oil processing centers were. Interesting enough the base at Rota does not appear to have been nuked.

The Basques and Catalonians have made their areas basically independent.

The V2 canon is different

"Iberian Peninsula: Although neutral, Spain and Portugal suffered the fate handed out to France because of their ports and oil handling facilities. The central governments are both a shambles, now represents mostly by roving bands of Guardia Civil and army units which lead a semi-marauder/extortionist existence.

Gibraltar and the area within 20 kilometers of it are in anarchy; the
rest of the peninsula is insular, terrorized, devastated, or independent."


Thus a lot depends on if you are writing a V1 or V2.2 guide
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-04-2020, 06:51 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,476
Default

Spanish Army 1989 - i.e. V1 timeline - about 300,000 men

1st Armored Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Mountain Division
5th Mountain Division

other troops

1st and 2nd Cavalry Brigades
Airmobile Infantry Brigade
Parachute Infantry Brigade
Spanish Legion Command
Special Operations Command
Army Aviation
Artillery Corps
Engineer Corps

Also there were Territorial units as well

If you look at V2.2. however - where the European Armies started to reduce their forces its a much smaller force - the Army was reduced to only about 190,000 men, most of the Territorial Units were gone and the number of divisions was reduced with only two divisions left

Division Castillejos
Division San Marcial

the rest of the forces from 1989 are still there but much reduced - the Spanish Legion for instance went from four regiments to two, the Airmobile Brigade was reduced etc.

So again what is left of the Spanish Army depends on your timeline
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-05-2020, 03:33 AM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Spanish Army 1989 - i.e. V1 timeline - about 300,000 men

1st Armored Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Mountain Division
5th Mountain Division

other troops

1st and 2nd Cavalry Brigades
Airmobile Infantry Brigade
Parachute Infantry Brigade
Spanish Legion Command
Special Operations Command
Army Aviation
Artillery Corps
Engineer Corps

Also there were Territorial units as well

If you look at V2.2. however - where the European Armies started to reduce their forces its a much smaller force - the Army was reduced to only about 190,000 men, most of the Territorial Units were gone and the number of divisions was reduced with only two divisions left

Division Castillejos
Division San Marcial

the rest of the forces from 1989 are still there but much reduced - the Spanish Legion for instance went from four regiments to two, the Airmobile Brigade was reduced etc.

So again what is left of the Spanish Army depends on your timeline
Thanks very much. I agree with what you're saying. The V1 Timeline interests me more, but I also may modify that for my own campaign. Of course, generally most armies are reduced by the Twilight War anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-05-2020, 06:59 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,476
Default

I agree that most armies have been reduced by the Twilight War - Spain however didnt see the same level of conflict as the others - but it also depends on your timeline - the much larger army of V1 would have a bigger presence than the smaller army of V2.2

Also Spain appears to be in worse shape in V2.2 than in V1 - i.e. the Spain of Med Cruise appears to be in better shape than the Spain of V2.2
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:00 AM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
I agree that most armies have been reduced by the Twilight War - Spain however didnt see the same level of conflict as the others - but it also depends on your timeline - the much larger army of V1 would have a bigger presence than the smaller army of V2.2

Also Spain appears to be in worse shape in V2.2 than in V1 - i.e. the Spain of Med Cruise appears to be in better shape than the Spain of V2.2
Yes, this is true.

One thing I am trying to work on is equipment, and I am figuring out what was in service in the 1980s as a guideline, and trying to decide what 1990s introduced equipment to include.

I like the names of Spanish units.

Another note: many Spanish cities have older buildings including castles and fortifications, which I think might be used in a similar way to Free City of Krakow.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-06-2020, 06:31 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfield View Post
Yes, this is true.

One thing I am trying to work on is equipment, and I am figuring out what was in service in the 1980s as a guideline, and trying to decide what 1990s introduced equipment to include.

I like the names of Spanish units.

Another note: many Spanish cities have older buildings including castles and fortifications, which I think might be used in a similar way to Free City of Krakow.
These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 05-06-2020 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Adding more
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-06-2020, 08:15 PM
Enfield Enfield is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf
Wow, thank you very much, that is a huge help.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-07-2020, 09:56 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 146
Default

It's a little bit later, but GHQ has a brief history up to and OrBat for the 1990s. It's simpler and less detailed than the Fire and Fury OrBat, but discusses some of the outside influences on the military reorganization from the perspective of 2004 or 2005.
__________________
The poster formerly known as The Dark

The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-08-2020, 06:03 AM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

That GHQ OrBat makes from some interesting reading in regards to the development of the modern Spanish military (and just Spanish recent history in general as well). Nice find
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-08-2020, 07:06 AM
lordroel lordroel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The Neterlands
Posts: 138
Default

Will we see the Spanish Legion Command become something the the French Foreign Legion, where they take all nationalities and not only Spanish speaking as they do now, this can bolster their strength i think.
__________________
| Alternate Timelines | home of a small but active alternate history community |
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-08-2020, 10:14 AM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordroel View Post
Will we see the Spanish Legion Command become something the the French Foreign Legion, where they take all nationalities and not only Spanish speaking as they do now, this can bolster their strength i think.
That's an interesting idea. I'm sure a few foreigners could find their way to Spain during the war, but I reckon that most folks would be serving their own home countries', very busy militaries during the Twilight War. And, even if they weren't, it would be very difficult to get to Spain by sea during a world war involving nuclear weapons.

During the Spanish Civil War, the Spanish Foreign Legion was manned mostly by Spaniards, many of whom were criminals. It had a particularly nasty reputation during what was a very nasty conflict.

Therefore, I think emptying Spanish prisons to bolster the Legion would produce more manpower than foreign volunteers during the Twilight War.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-08-2020, 11:26 AM
mpipes mpipes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 179
Default

One thing to keep in mind was that Spain and Portugal were both NATO members by 1996.

That likely means some Spanish combat veterans as well as troops in Germany. Would Spain sit idly by with France invading NATO allies?

In my campaign -

[1993] In Norway, King Harold declares a state of emergency and persuades the Storting (parliament) to pass a number of emergency measures. Among these is permission for foreign units to be based on Norwegian soil (normally not allowed unless by war). The U.S. 10th (Mountain) Division, elements of the U.S. 6th Marine Regiment, Canadian Airborne and 3 (Commando) Brigade Royal Marines deploy (the Americans using pre-positioned material in caves in north Norway). The Canadian 1st Infantry Brigade is to be added as a reinforcement if required. Norway also shops around for more tanks and ATGMs, managing to purchase over three-dozen non-upgraded Leopard 2A3s from German stocks and getting Spain to deploy a battalion of Spanish AMX40s manned by Spanish Foreign Legion troops as well as an infantry battalion of Spanish Legionnaires together with a battalion of 105mm towed guns (designated as the Norway Battlegroup).

With this clear invasion of another NATO ally, Danish and Dutch units soon cross the border into Germany, as well as Norway, entering combat. In Norway, as more crack British commandos and U.S. Marines join the battle, bolstered by Dutch marines and Danish special ops troops, the front line moves east again toward the Soviet naval facilities on the Kola Peninsula, and elite Soviet paratroopers and naval infantry are isolated and destroyed. Meanwhile, a still mobilizing Portugal and Spain begin to deploy units to Germany, with a handful going to Norway. Spanish A7Fs prove especially useful in attacks on Pact naval ships and shipping in the Baltic Sea.

On July 29th, a carefully orchestrated air campaign is unleashed on Italy from Spanish air bases and from the USS America and USS Kennedy as well as Spanish carriers. U.S. F117 and F19 aircraft operating from Spain attack the air defense network in Sicily and Sardinia, followed by F111 strike aircraft attacking airfields up and down the length of the southern half of the Italian Peninsula. U.S. naval aircraft and submarines search for and attack the Italian and Greek surface and submarine fleet. The Spanish and Portuguese air forces attack airfields in Sicily and Sardinia, respectively, with A7Fs and Ps used extensively. By the end of August 2nd, the Italian surface fleet has lost most of its major units, including the Garibaldi, which was struck by no less than seven Harpoon ASMs before breaking in half when her magazine exploded. What remained of the Italian surface fleet moved northward into the Adriatic Sea.
Operation Carthaginian begins August 1st with the airdrop of the U.S. 173rd Airborne Brigade (deploying from Cairo and Alexandria), elements of the German 15th Airborne Division, and the Canadian Airborne Regiment, as well as a battalion of Spanish paratroopers, outside of Messina, Sicily supported by the landing of Spanish and U.S. Marines. On the morning of August 3rd, Canadian paratroopers and another battalion of Spanish paratroopers seize the municipal airfield, and a stream of C130 and C17 aircraft began airlifting in additional forces. By August 9th, NATO wraps up active combat operations with the defeat and surrender of all Italian forces on the island. NATO now possesses secured lines of communication and supply to Turkey using Spanish, Portuguese, and American airpower based on the island. With the western and central Mediterranean secure, the U.S. and Spanish navy advance into the eastern Mediterranean and then into the Red Sea and Persian Gulf supported by both the Egyptian and Israeli navies. The USS America begins patrolling the western Indian Ocean and eastern Med operating from Alexandria and the Persian Gulf. The USS Independence likewise patrols the Persian Gulf and the eastern Indian Ocean.

On Thanksgiving Day, the Soviets unambiguously cross the threshold with ICBMs and SLBMs launched against strategic targets in the U.S., U.K., Canada, and France. Military targets are hit (including the first decapitating strikes at U.S. targets), industrial targets clearly vital to the war effort, followed by economic targets of military importance (transportation and communication, oil fields and refineries). The Soviet ICBMs’ primary targets include major industrial and oil centers in both belligerent and neutral nations. Neutral nations are targeted to prevent their possible use by the other side. Mexican, Portuguese, Spanish, Brazilian, Venezuelan, and Australian refineries are attacked using missiles armed with FAE warheads from SSGNs and SLBMs (an indication to NATO intelligence that the Soviets have limited numbers of deliverable nuclear warheads left). Numerous warheads are aimed at logistical stockpiles and command-control centers of the armies in the field. The civilian political command structure is first decimated, then eliminated (almost by accident in some cases). The exchanges continue, fitfully and irregularly, through November and then gradually peter out in early 1998.

Spain reacts to the violation of German territory by unexpectedly invading France and occupying a broad swath of French territory in southwest France. The Spanish army occupies towns and villages as deep as 30km inside France as far west as the Garonne River with armor and infantry units occupying the city of Pau. The invasion leads to scattered fighting as combat erupts throughout the area. Cooler heads prevail, and a cease fire of sorts takes shape, but Spain refuses to evacuate French territory as long as French troops remain in Germany. Portuguese troops reinforce the Spanish troops, and a combined mechanized infantry force patrols from Pau.

In late May ['98], the Pact forces in southern Germany renew their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces make a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, with the Spanish II Corps and the American III and VI Corps carrying the brunt of the early fighting, and the Pact offensive finally stalls along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda.

In Europe in July, NATO mounts a massive counter-offensive into Austria with the German II and IV Corps and U.S. V Corps along with the Iberian I Corps, and the Brazilian EF, pushing Warsaw Pact forces back into Austria and closing in on the Czech border. Italian troops in conjunction with Austrian rear guard troops force the passes into eastern Austria and penetrate to the Czech border as the Italians re-enter the war on the NATO side, rolling up the Pact forces as they tear into the Pact’s flank. The combined NATO force enters Czech territory before running out of steam after capturing Budweis. However, NATO is spent at this point and is not in a logistical position to make any further follow up. Stories start to circulate of clashes between Czechoslovakian 24th Motor Rifle Division troops and Soviet troops relieving them of occupation duty in Austria, when the 24th's commander (backed by his commissar) refuses to hand over scarce vehicles and supplies. The 24th MRD is quickly and quietly recalled home given internal security duties at home, where it is noted they take great delight in hunting down Soviet deserters and marauders who try to cross the Carpathian Mountains.

BAOR was pulled out of Czechoslovakia in the spring [98] and moved back to central Germany, encamping in an area stretching from Osnabrück to Hanover and Braunschweig to Paderborn. For the rest of the year, they were involved in a number of anti-marauder actions and some rebuilding work. The Spanish II Corps and Iberian I Corps, along with the BEF and the ANZA I Corps take the place of the BOAR in the front lines, firmly establishing a well-deserved reputation as elite front-line troops.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-08-2020, 03:33 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,476
Default

Spain will definitely have sent some combat formations into the war - there is no way the Spanish govt - who had just fought so hard to get accepted into NATO would have sat this out. That is one place where the canon should have been modified to include the Spanish into the NATO forces. Have a feeling the original writers really didnt think about Spain until they wrote Med Cruise and then wrote those few throw away paragraphs about it.

Now that doesnt say the whole Spanish Army gets thrown into the war on the main fronts. But at least there would have been a division sized force sent, most likely mountain troops that would have been used when Italy went to war with NATO and invaded thru the Alps.

If you use V1 of the timeline I would bet on either troops from the Spanish Legion or the 4th or 5th Mountain Division. And no one division of Spanish mountain troops doesnt throw the canon off in any way - if anything it would help explain how the Germans and Dutch managed to stop them - i.e. Spanish troops bought them time to redeploy.

Last edited by Olefin; 05-08-2020 at 09:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-08-2020, 05:24 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,476
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf
Like this summation of the Spanish Army

Until 1965 the Spanish Army was composed of “classical” regiments and divisions. In 1965 a reorganization was undertaken that divided Army forces in Intervention and Operational Defense formations adopting the brigade as the main component of Divisions. This is the organization shown by Andy Johnson. However since 1984 a modernization plan was underway aimed at improving the intervention ability of the army and updating its equipment.

The META plan, as it was called only achieved its objectives partially, however the army was reorganized and this was the situation in 1989. Since 1994 Divisions were abolished and brigades were adopted as the highest level formation, but when Spain became part of Eurocorps, the decision was taken to maintain the Brunete division updating it with a third mechanized brigade.

In the Spanish Army, brigades are composed of 2 regiments of 1 or 2 battalions each. Although infantry regiments are only administrative units, they keep the traditions of older units and are commanded by Colonels.

Brigades are commanded by Brigadiers. In case of war, a Corps sized unit would have been committed to operations in the Southern theater of operations. This Corps could have been either mechanized or mountain
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-08-2020, 08:56 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

That's basically what's written in the GHQ OrBat that Vespers War linked to. It's worth noting that in one of those OrBats it mentions that Spain's NATO role in a war would "probably" be to send mountain troops into the Italy/Greece/Turkey area and an armoured force to the Rhine. So there's lots of room to play around with.

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 05-08-2020 at 09:00 PM. Reason: clarifying
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-08-2020, 10:57 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,772
Default

Well actually it seems unlikely you will find Spanish troops on the front alongside other NATO members.
Basically, "no troops were to be deployed outside of Spain on a sustained basis" and the command structure is not integrated into that of the rest of NATO. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13103.html
It would seem their role in the event of WWIII would be to secure a strategic base of operations (ie their own borders) in order to facilitate counter attacks upon the PACT forces when the rest of Europe was lost.
Spain, the ultimate REMFs/pogues...
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-08-2020, 11:13 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Well actually it seems unlikely you will find Spanish troops on the front alongside other NATO members.
Basically, "no troops were to be deployed outside of Spain on a sustained basis" and the command structure is not integrated into that of the rest of NATO. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13103.html
It would seem their role in the event of WWIII would be to secure a strategic base of operations (ie their own borders) in order to facilitate counter attacks upon the PACT forces when the rest of Europe was lost.
Spain, the ultimate REMFs/pogues...
Which is probably why the GDW writers didn't include them in the main events?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.