Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Benjamin]

After thinking long and hard about it...I just cancelled my $90+ pledge on their kickstarter.

It really came down to three things for me in order of importance from least to most...

3. It’s a boxed set. I hate boxed sets. They are bulky and easily get crushed. I had funded enough for the metal “special edition” but even that idea didn’t thrill me.

2. It uses my least favorite version of the TL. Version 2.2 TL was silly. By the time of the August coup attempt the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact were done. All the Eastern Europeans hated the USSR and even the Russians were apathetic. At least in Version 1.0 a person could argue that some vicious crackdowns might have put off the inevitable but by 1991 it was game over.

3. It will no longer in any way connect to 2300AD. As I said elsewhere, my T2K is always the past of 2300AD, my favorite RPG ever. Unfortunately, 2300AD is held by Mongoose Publishing and thus its quality is sub-par. If Free League had gotten the rights to 2300AD I would have funded that in a heart beat. But alas the two are separated so my interest has greatly waned.

Truth be told I’m not really fond of post-apocalyptic gaming any more. It’s so damn over done. I love talking about military vehicles and scenarios but I’m happy with the nearly complete T2K collection I have now and don’t need yet another version.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Truth be told I’m not really fond of post-apocalyptic gaming any more. It’s so damn over done.

I can relate to this very easily. Two of my favourite settings are apocalypse and post-apocalypse, I've got a number of movies, novels, TV series and games from these two genres because I would collect almost everything.

Almost... because I am thoroughly tired of zombie and mutant type apoc/post-apoc, they've been done so often that many of the stories/movies/games end up being pretty much the same. There's so many of them I've stopped collecting apoc/post-apoc RPGs and just focus on the few that I would like to play.
I think the way these two genres have been saturated with product, it's very easy to become jaded.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

2. It uses my least favorite version of the TL. Version 2.2 TL was silly.

As one of the few who've seen the new timeline, I think I can confirm it's NOT the same as 2.2 (or any of the other versions). It really only shares the divergence point with 2.2 and a few other very small details (Americans in Poland as one example).
Other than that, it's a complete rewrite which could still tie in to 2300, if you squint your eyes a bit and use some imagination.

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.

[Ewan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.

Because it’s a well known brand and people will back it.
If it was called say “Warfare in the 1990s RPG” you would probably get less backers.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I believe the question was rhetorical.
We're all pretty aware of why it would be branded as a T2k game.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I am thoroughly tired of zombie and mutant type apoc/post-apoc, they've been done so often that many of the stories/movies/games end up being pretty much the same. There's so many of them I've stopped collecting apoc/post-apoc RPGs and just focus on the few that I would like to play.
I think the way these two genres have been saturated with product, it's very easy to become jaded.

I've had similar conversations to this with people before. I enjoy the post apoc genre, whether it's Twilight 2000, Mad Max, Survivors (BBC series that ran briefly in the 70's then was rebooted equally briefly in the 2010's), etc, etc.

Mutants I can kind of tolerate. But I have no interest whatsoever in the Zombie genre. I don't even class it as post apoc. It's supernatural (or however you want to describe it). In my opinion it's a completely different genre, one that has virtually nothing in common with the one that I enjoy.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As one of the few who've seen the new timeline, I think I can confirm it's NOT the same as 2.2 (or any of the other versions). It really only shares the divergence point with 2.2 and a few other very small details (Americans in Poland as one example).
Other than that, it's a complete rewrite which could still tie in to 2300, if you squint your eyes a bit and use some imagination.

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.

Thanks for the info. That’s interesting and not what the initial interview and announcements led me to believe. But that could very much go either way. It be a good solid believable timeline or a train wreck (cough, 2013, cough). I try to take a look at it when it comes out in game stores but if it’s in a boxed set that might not be possible.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I've had similar conversations to this with people before. I enjoy the post apoc genre, whether it's Twilight 2000, Mad Max, Survivors (BBC series that ran briefly in the 70's then was rebooted equally briefly in the 2010's), etc, etc.

Mutants I can kind of tolerate. But I have no interest whatsoever in the Zombie genre. I don't even class it as post apoc. It's supernatural (or however you want to describe it). In my opinion it's a completely different genre, one that has virtually nothing in common with the one that I enjoy.

I agree. The zombie genre is repetitive and boring. And way over done.

On a similar note I’ve grown really bored with the grim dark Sci-Fi genre that almost always tries to be somehow “Lovecraftian”. I still like Eclipse Phase because the books are really attractive and the writing is good, but I’m even a bit jaded by the new Aliens RPG (also coincidentally by Free League). Had a good version of Aliens come out 10 years ago I would have super excited but now it’s just one of many many “Horror in the darkness of space!” RPGS and so I’m “meh” about it. (At least Aliens doesn’t have the added trope of “We’ve lost Earth!”)

That’s why I like 2300AD (and for harder sci-fi, Transhuman Space by Steve Jackson Games). Sure you could have a horror themed adventure or cyberpunk but overall it’s a pretty straight forward good sci-fi setting with believable colony worlds and excellent aliens. And as a bonus when tied to T2K it had a well developed plausible background that could be mined for adventure ideas.

[Olefin]

Its definitely not tied to Twilight 2300AD in any way - Tomas made that very clear that V4 isnt part of that universe in any way - so its basically a fresh start as far as the future - i.e. the whole Mexico takes over Central America and the American Southwest, independent Texas, the French Empire - all of that is not a factor in V4

And yes the timeline is different - enough so that its not a tweak of V2.2 - its a major revision of 2.2

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And yes the timeline is different - enough so that its not a tweak of V2.2 - its a major revision of 2.2

Revision? Not at all. It's a totally new background that only shares a few small points. Reboot probably is a good word to use. That's always a good idea for movies and television, looking at the past with modern eyes always works right?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Revision? Not at all. It's a totally new background that only shares a few small points. Reboot probably is a good word to use. That's always a good idea for movies and television, looking at the past with modern eyes always works right?

Sometimes it does - Battlestar Galactica comes to mind immediately or the reboot Star Trek initial movie - but I have also seen that work very badly indeed - i.e. what they did to Khan in the second movie

and yes you are right - its a reboot - and actually its on a par with the Battlestar Galactica reboot as far as the changes if you think about it - so the question is will the fans love it once its out there (remember there was one hell of a lot of resistance to the BSG reboot when it was announced - i.e. equate the no 2300AD tie in to BSG making Starbuck a female) or will they win over new converts but at the cost of turning off the old fanbase

Getting Frank Frey involved helps a lot - got me if they can get others to sign on too from "classic T2K' - I know that I would love to write for it - and frankly as I have said Raellus's Rooks Gambit just screams lets rewrite it for V4

[Olefin]

Another stretch goal unlocked

We will now expand the boxed set with two double-sided extra-large combat maps (size 432x279mm) depicting the four scenario sites included in the Referee’s Manual.

All this is left is the Black Madonna

[comped]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Another stretch goal unlocked

We will now expand the boxed set with two double-sided extra-large combat maps (size 432x279mm) depicting the four scenario sites included in the Referee’s Manual.

All this is left is the Black Madonna

At the rate they are going, they should unlock that goal.

[Hybris]

I would guesstimate that this kickstarter lands around 4 mil if nothing exciting is added that people can't live without, such as vehicle cards or an surprise adon sourcebook etc.A success it is anyway since the most funded rpg game so for for FL is: 4 249 903 SEK for the Electric State, they may even beat that goal.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Recently the kickstarter hit another stretch goal. The Black Madonna rewrite is now unlocked based on the money pledged although when I check the kickstarter page it had not been updated to reflect this

[Hybris]

Good Morning, its about 07,30 here in Sweden on saturday morning, so im sure the next SGs will be delayed a bit.

[Cdnwolf]

With only a few days left I don't forsee any major stretch goals. Maybe another set of dice would be easiest.

*dreaming of a Pirates rewrite*

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Recently the kickstarter hit another stretch goal. The Black Madonna rewrite is now unlocked based on the money pledged although when I check the kickstarter page it had not been updated to reflect this

STRETCHGOAL 22: THE BLACK MADONNA – UNLOCKED!
The Black Madonna is one of the most iconic modules for the first edition of Twilight: 2000. If we reach this goal, the original author Frank Frey will write a new version of this scenario, updated for the new edition. This is a digital stretch goal, which will be made available to all backers in PDF format, after the release of the core game. Backers will also be able to order a printed version of this book from our webshop at zero cost except shipping.

[Jason Weiser]

It seems they are listening to people on what they want:

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – LOCKED
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

[comped]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

It seems they are listening to people on what they want:

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – LOCKED
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

Excited for this.

[Legbreaker]

I can't believe they didn't include this from the very start! It's rather vital to form a proper understanding of the game world for referees. Bit of a big step up too compared to the others. I wonder if they made it more because they don't really want to include it if they can avoid it?

[Olefin]

I agree this should be a day one goal - surprised they never considered it till now - that and there should be soon some kind of order of battle for the US, Soviet, Swedish and NATO forces in the game - especially for refs running scenarios - you could use the old books but with the new timeline they wont be accurate

[Targan]

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines.

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

-

And that very much sums up my take on crowdfunding for things like this.
I've dabbled in crowdfunding over the years and when it comes to things like raising funds to, for example, build wells in remote communities or help start community businesses, the overall outcomes are generally positive for the short & long term.

I do appreciate the desire to mitigate risk by cutting out the need to raise capital, take loans or get investors but when it comes to crowdfunding for hobbies and the like, it really does feel sometimes like it's a quick grab for cash and there is no intention of supporting the product for the long term.
For a company like Free League or Clockwork Publishing, I can understand the desire for crowdfunding because even though they are well established they're still small companies and don't make massive profits.

But still, given Free League's track record of a big release at the beginning and very little to no product development/release after a few years, I am concerned that this kickstarter will give them the money they need to push a bunch of product out in the first year and then they will rest on their laurels and do nothing else for this 4th edition (except to rely on fan-made content to keep interest alive). With all the cash they'll be getting from this kickstarter, they don't really have to do much work to keep the company financial for the next couple of years - that's why it concerns me. Will they simply figure "Hey we've done all we have to, lets put our feet up until we come up with some new game" or do they truly intend to develop the T2k setting for a longer term?

[pansarskott]

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by pansarskott

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype

Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

To defend Free League a bit, their Mutant:Year Zero, as called everywhere but Sweden, they have released expansions for them. One box for each major archetype, animal-mutants, robots, non-mutated humans (and mutated humans were the bog standard in the release box). But you do have a point.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

I was more thinking of T:2013.