Possible Location of the UK Capital?

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, looking for some opinions here.

As some of you are aware my pet project is my own strictly non canonical take on what the UK looks like in the T2K universe. For the last month or so I’ve been working on a second (and hopefully final) draft of my timeline. Changes are relatively minor, mainly a bit of tidying up here and there, a slightly amended orbat and a reduction of HMG’s strength in the north east.

One thing that I am spending a great deal of time thinking about just now is the location of the UK Capital. From the very outset (a good number of years ago) I have always placed this in Oxford (specifically Balliol College if anyone’s interested...) following the destruction of York in autumn 1998. I like the idea of Oxford as a centre of Government and I like the idea of the dons from the various Oxford colleges forming a sort of impromptu civil service. I also like the idea of the Royal Family occupying Blenheim Palace which is nearby.

However, looking at the number of troops available for internal security and Oxford’s location (it’s pretty much on the edge of the area controlled by the Government in the south), I find myself questioning how practical a choice Oxford is as I think I may be about a Brigade short of what I need to make it work (I currently have three Brigades, with a combined manpower of around 4,500 men).

If I choose to place the Capital south of the M4 corridor that removes the need for a large military presence north of the M4. So what I’m probably looking at is the borders of the territory controlled by HMG being defined (more or less) by the M3 motorway (eastern border), M4 motorway (northern border), and A350 road (western border), with major garrisons in Reading, Swindon, and Warminster who would have clearly defined borders to patrol / defend.

Following that logic Salisbury* would seem to be the most obvious location for the Capital; it’s well away from the border areas and surrounded by Army bases so security shouldn’t be an issue.

It’s going to mean ripping up a pile of work and starting again, but it is making a degree of sense to me…anyone got any thoughts?

Cheers

Dave

(* I know Portsmouth is the Capital in the Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom, but as stated I’m not strictly following canon).

[simonmark6]

I haven't got my "Survivor's Guide to the UK" with me so there might be a reason why my suggestion doesn't work, or there might be a problem in your timeline I can't remember.

I would suggest Winchester, it's on the M3 and less than 20 miles from Southampton and the Isle of White. The old city is surrounded by good farmland, has a University and plenty of educational establishments as well as several high status places to house parliament (I'd suggest the Guildhall) and the Royal Family. It also has teh historical cachet of being Alfred the Great's Wessex and the old capital of England.

What better symbolic place to lead the rise from the ashes?

It's maybe a bit east for the capital.

[dude_uk]

I'd go with Winchester too, the small corridor between Devon and Hampshire that you have created for yourself doesn't not have too many population centres. You only other bets are Bristol, Bath and ...er Weston super-mare?

Winchester besides hosting all the historical links, also has Army training regiment Winchester there. With United Kingdom Land forces HQ gone near Salisbury. Its the only really major garrison you could have. It would probably have a battalion or so still there when the nukes fly or possibly more if recruitment is high or conscription is introduced. It was prior to 1993 the Light Division Depot responsible for training for the Royal green jackets and Light Infantry.

Possibility of the the infantry demonstration Battalion being in warminster. But more than likely sent to eastern europe

Other troops in the area probably include the battered remains of the 43rd (Wessex) TA Brigade.

-The Wessex Yeomanry (TA): Light Recce
-6th Bn, The Light Infantry (TA) -
-Elements of 2nd Bn, The Wessex Regiment (TA)- This due to the fact that alot of it was based in Berkshire and hampshire too

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks guys, I do appreciate your feedback and suggestions. Looking at a map and some websites, Winchester looks like a pretty good choice, and certainly seems to be a better one than Salisbury (Dude, if you discount Portsmouth then your other suggestions are pretty much it I think, though I have ULKF HQ still intact at Wilton as Salisbury isn’t listed as a canon strike, although Bristol is).

As I mentioned in my original post, I am attached to the idea of having the capital in Oxford, and I think it could work – there is the possibility of additional security coming from the RAF at Brize Norton and possibly the Americans at Upper Heyford but that said I can’t help but now think that it leaves HMG’s borders too exposed, whereas consolidating south of the M4 gives a more solid border. I know it’s only a motorway and could still be crossed easily enough, but I’m thinking that it can be fortified to a point, with barbed wire for example, and can be patrolled regularly, whereas securing a clearly defined and defensible border north of the M4 is going to be a much harder task, so by extension putting the capital north of the M4 is probably not the best idea.

With regard to troops, I’ve got 43rd Brigade covering the western border; 6 Light Infantry are in Warminster, with a detachment at Bath, whilst 2 Wessex are in Swindon, where they have been reinforced by RAF personnel from Lyneham and assorted bods recruited into the HSF in 97/98, so can muster six full Rifle Companies. Royal Wessex Yeomanry are nominally based at Bulford, but in practice spend much of their time away from base patrolling the borders and beyond. 4 Brigade also has 11 Regiment Royal Signals and 14 Regiment, RA (less one Battery) attached to it (both in an Infantry role).

The other main formation I have in the south is 2nd Brigade. Whilst I have 2nd Brigade suffering heavy casualties in the 97 exchanges (Brigade HQ at Aldershot and one regular Battalion in the Dover area are basically obliterated), I have it rebuilding in 98 and currently has under command 1 Royal Anglian Regiment (the other Regular Battalion assigned to the Brigade pre War) and three TA Battalions brought back from Germany in Dec 97 (there is a reference to this on page 11 of the SGUK), plus elements of the Duke of Lancaster’s Yeomanry.

43rd and 2nd Brigades end up with roughly 2,000 men each at the moment, both having been reinforced by personnel from the RAF and the various Support Corps, HSF, personnel separated from their unts, etc, etc.

The third Brigade is the Household Brigade, which is effectively serving as the Sovereign’s guard. From what I can tell even when War broke out it's possible either three or four Guards Battalions would have stayed in the London area – I obliterated one Bn in the 1997 London attack and another one in the 1998 York attack, but that still leaves the possibility of at least one being in the UK. So currently my Household Brigade has elements of the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, a single Company of Grenadiers, 63 Squadron, RAF Regiment (now retitled King’s Colour Squadron), and a detachment of Dutch Marines, with the possibility of adding a Guards Battalion if I wish. If the idea is purely to protect the Sovereign, I think the force is strong enough without the additional Battalion, so at the moment I’m inclined to put them in Bulford, with a role as UKLF’s strategic reserve.

The Portsmouth area is covered by the RN. So...what I think at the moment I’m inclined to do is abandon the territory north of the M4...the west looks OK...and in the east I’m going to look at pushing the border out to a line running more or less north east up th3 A3 from Portsmouth through Petersfield to the ruins of Aldershot

Thanks again guys, particularly for the suggestion of placing the capital in Winchester, as that had absolutely not occurred to me...I’ve got to sit on a train for five hours later on in the week, so I’ll most likely spend that journey poring over a map of the south of England trying to come to some sort of final decision as to what I’m going to do, as frankly I’m spending so much time thinking about this at the moment that it’s starting to give me a headache!

Cheers

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I am attached to the idea of having the capital in Oxford, and I think it could work – there is the possibility of additional security coming from the RAF at Brize Norton and possibly the Americans at Upper Heyford

And civilian police? Do you include them?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

And civilian police? Do you include them?

Yes to a certain extent.

The civilian authorities are running the country (or at least the area that they control), so it's not under martial law per se, but Parliament has passed legislation temporarily giving the military primacy in enforcing law and order. I'm assuming that towns and cities within the area controlled by HMG will still have a number of civilian police*, who will be working in conjunction with the military. The way I envisage it is that police officers will accompany military patrols, in urban areas at least.

* I haven't done any sort of headcount of how many police any given area might have.

[Legbreaker]

Dutch marines? Why are they in the UK far from the front lines on which their countrymen fought?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Dutch marines? Why are they in the UK far from the front lines on which their countrymen fought?

In my non canonical work the Queen of the Netherlands and other members of the Dutch Royal Family have left their occupied homeland and sought sanctuary in the UK. The Dutch Marines, who number thirty, accompanied them to the UK and serve as a bodyguard for their exiled Sovereign and her family.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

In my non canonical work the Queen of the Netherlands and other members of the Dutch Royal Family have left their occupied homeland and sought sanctuary in the UK. The Dutch Marines, who number thirty, accompanied them to the UK and serve as a bodyguard for their exiled Sovereign and her family.

I had orignaly thought that the British Royal family had either taken sanctuary in Canada, or the royal yacht.... or both. On one of the T2K forums there was a British player who had served in the Royal Navy and knew how the evac plan for the Royals were to have done down. But it's been years since i had read it, and can't remember all of it. I just remember they evaced the Royals to various locations so at least ONE of them would be able to survive and carry on the monarchy. Almost like the designated survivor plan that the Executive Branch uses.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

In my non canonical work...

Fair enough. 30 men certainly won't be missed at home and they've obviously got a rather important role. Is 30 enough though? How many are needed on duty at a time? Will they have sufficent numbers to allow a rest day here and there so they don't burn out?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Almost like the designated survivor plan that the Executive Branch uses.

In a way it's bad all our government is in one place -- maybe they should work by Skype or Cisco.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In a way it's bad all our government is in one place -- maybe they should work by Skype or Cisco.

If i remember right, the District of Columbia was going to be larger, but it was felt that it was way to much space for a capitol, and they gave half back to Virginia. Now that area has become massively taken over by government buildings and housing for those working in the district.

My second or third cousins live there, and have lived there for generations. They have their own little business (construction) and are starting to talk about having to move out of the home that's been in their part of the family for over a hundred years because of taxes.

I've always felt that having the executive branch in one city, legislative branch in another and judicial in yet another is a good idea. so much harder to decapitate the government.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm in the processing of updating my web site, and found I made the following reference for the CDS MP5-224 (British Submachineguns) for T2K Notes:

The personal bodyguards for the members of the Royal Family still in England are known to use them on occasion, as do the bodyguards for the Prime Minister. Rounds generally have to be handloaded, though there is a government facility that makes small lots.

Just an idea.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'm in the processing of updating my web site, and found I made the following reference for the CDS MP5-224 (British Submachineguns) for T2K Notes:

The personal bodyguards for the members of the Royal Family still in England are known to use them on occasion, as do the bodyguards for the Prime Minister. Rounds generally have to be handloaded, though there is a government facility that makes small lots.

Just an idea.

I have a question about the UK Wartime Government...

Are you playing that Prince Charles has assumed the throne, or has he died and the throne gone to William or Harry? I had always gone with Charles not surviving and William becoming King with his mother helping as his closest adviser.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I have a question about the UK Wartime Government...

Are you playing that Prince Charles has assumed the throne, or has he died and the throne gone to William or Harry? I had always gone with Charles not surviving and William becoming King with his mother helping as his closest adviser.

Back when I was GMing, Charles was the King. Elizabeth was killed, not by the nuclear strikes, but by rebels. However, the Prime Minister is the de facto head of government. Diana kind of abandoned him and became a leading figure in maintaining the British government, including taking up arms. William is serving in the Middle East. His uncle, Andrew, is also in the Middle East. Harry, who would have been kind of young at the time for military, is in Canada.

This was all colored by the fact that I knew much less about the Royal Family at the time than I know now.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Fair enough. 30 men certainly won't be missed at home and they've obviously got a rather important role. Is 30 enough though? How many are needed on duty at a time? Will they have sufficent numbers to allow a rest day here and there so they don't burn out?

Fair point. The Dutch now form part of the British Army's Household Brigade, so I have a total of approx four hundred men assigned to jointly guard the two Royal Households. Outer perimeter security is handled by the British, with the Dutch Marines performing close security for the Dutch Royal Family, with support from a Company of British Grenadier Guards if / when required.

Also, if I move the Capital to Winchester (as seems likely at the moment) several hundred more troops will be ten - fifteen minutes away from the Royal Family's location.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I have a question about the UK Wartime Government...

Are you playing that Prince Charles has assumed the throne, or has he died and the throne gone to William or Harry? I had always gone with Charles not surviving and William becoming King with his mother helping as his closest adviser.

I've gone along similar lines to you. In summary, most senior members of the Royal Family, including the Queen and Prince Charles, survive the 1997 attacks (forewarned by Intelligence that an attack may be possible, they left London as a precautionary measure a few days before the attack), however both of them are killed in the autumn 1998 exchanges, which come without any warning and catch both of them in the same place (IRL I actually think it's unlikely they would both be in the same place, but I wanted to have William as King, so chose to "fudge" things slightly).

At that point the sixteen year old Prince William ascends to the throne. Only difference is that I have his mother as one of his advisors, but not neccessarily the closest - that would be Prince Andrew.

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'm in the processing of updating my web site, and found I made the following reference for the CDS MP5-224 (British Submachineguns) for T2K Notes:

The personal bodyguards for the members of the Royal Family still in England are known to use them on occasion, as do the bodyguards for the Prime Minister. Rounds generally have to be handloaded, though there is a government facility that makes small lots.

Just an idea.

Thanks Paul, I might make use of that.

[natehale1971]

you know...

The Royals of the NATO Allies could have all pooled resources and set up a place where they would be able to lead their peoples... Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, and the UK all have royal families (and in many cases they are all inter-related at some point). Having Winchester become the new center for the Civil governments of those nations during 'duration of the state of emergency' while the location of the new NATO HQ could be the centre for the military units all over NATO controlled/claimed territories!

This would definitely add a little intrigue to the mix.