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  #31  
Old 12-31-2021, 03:31 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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Definitely the BMP-3 in lesser numbers. The Objekt 640 was pretty much sorted but was spread over too many republics. I reckon it's a GM call.
The APC and terminator versions would never have been built so if you saw them both vehicles would be in the same unit, a scary proposition especially as they're both thermal equipped. Their survival rate would be tiny though.
The nail in the coffin for Ob.640 was the First Chechen War, where the poor performance of the T-80 convinced the Armor Directorate to cancel all gas turbine developments.

I suppose one other possible platform for Kaktus if Ob.640 had entered service would have been the BTR-T for use in urban combat over the BMP-3. The BMPT Terminator was just getting prototyped in the late 90s, while the BTR-T was a (relatively) quick and simple conversion of a T-55 to a heavy APC like Achzarit. The actual BTR-T uses Kontakt-5, but I could see them being used like the BMPT, with one or two BTR-T providing anti-infantry protection to one or two Ob.640 and being outfitted with Kaktus instead of Kontakt to simplify logistics and improve protection.
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  #32  
Old 01-02-2022, 10:30 AM
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The nail in the coffin for Ob.640 was the First Chechen War, where the poor performance of the T-80 convinced the Armor Directorate to cancel all gas turbine developments.

I suppose one other possible platform for Kaktus if Ob.640 had entered service would have been the BTR-T for use in urban combat over the BMP-3. The BMPT Terminator was just getting prototyped in the late 90s, while the BTR-T was a (relatively) quick and simple conversion of a T-55 to a heavy APC like Achzarit. The actual BTR-T uses Kontakt-5, but I could see them being used like the BMPT, with one or two BTR-T providing anti-infantry protection to one or two Ob.640 and being outfitted with Kaktus instead of Kontakt to simplify logistics and improve protection.
Kaktus is the only 'soviet' ERA that can be placed on a vehicle with less than 30mm of 350BHN RHA equivalent (Soviet armour was 550 BHN so it's about 1.3x equivalent armour) so it can go on much lighter vehicles. This is why it ended up on the BMP-3
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  #33  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:29 PM
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True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, a small number of BMP-3s were already in service by 1989.
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  #34  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:35 PM
Ursus Maior Ursus Maior is offline
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Just barely, though. In 1987, the army of the USSR received 12 pre-production models of the BMP-3. For the year 1990 IISS' Military Balance notes "some BMP-3" (p. 35) in service, for the years 1994-1995 the relevant volume notes 17 BMP-3 (p. 112) in service for Russia. However, by 2000 around 1,000 BMP-3 had been produced, with 900 going abroad (600 alone to United Arab Emirates) and just 120 serving in the Russian armed forces (http://www.military-today.com/apc/bmp_3.htm and https://www.army-technology.com/projects/bmp-3/).

However, these numbers show that, money influx provided, a resurgent USSR could have reached several hundreds possibly more than 1,000 BMP-3s produced by outbreak of the Twilight War.
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  #35  
Old 01-03-2022, 08:24 PM
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However, these numbers show that, money influx provided, a resurgent USSR could have reached several hundreds possibly more than 1,000 BMP-3s produced by outbreak of the Twilight War.
And the single BMP-2 plant was building 1,800 vehicles per year of the BMP-2M variant at the same time
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  #36  
Old 01-09-2022, 04:00 PM
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I may have been wrong and there is actually yet another Soviet ERA in-period, this the Tifon ERA created expressly for the BTR-90. However I've only found one reference for it and have zero statistics for it.
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  #37  
Old 01-09-2022, 05:06 PM
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I may have been wrong and there is actually yet another Soviet ERA in-period, this the Tifon ERA created expressly for the BTR-90. However I've only found one reference for it and have zero statistics for it.
The BTR-90 was first displayed in 1994 but didn't enter (very limited) production until 2004, so its ERA is probably outside any GDW-era timeline, though it might fit for T2k13. AFAIK, the only production was ~135-140 built from 2004-2011 that saw service only with the MVD with limited testing by other units.
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  #38  
Old 01-09-2022, 05:19 PM
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The BTR-90 was first displayed in 1994 but didn't enter (very limited) production until 2004, so its ERA is probably outside any GDW-era timeline, though it might fit for T2k13. AFAIK, the only production was ~135-140 built from 2004-2011 that saw service only with the MVD with limited testing by other units.
Well, it's certainly fine for 1st edition. As the Russkis were stone broke in the 1990s and early 2000s but in the game they have to rearm for an actual war so I think it should definitely be in the game but your mileage may vary.

Regardless, there was this enigmatic ERA designed in the 1990s available for manufacture but as I said I can't find any info for it at all, even in Russian-language sources.
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  #39  
Old 09-20-2022, 07:31 PM
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I found another ERA system that would be period-appropriate for T2K, which is Royal Ordnance's ROMOR-A. It first appeared on a Pakistani Type 59 tank at BAEE in 1984. During the First Gulf War, it saw limited service on the lower glacis of Challenger tanks and on the turrets of Centurion AVREs. It was also fitted to Centauro armored cars operating in Somalia during the UN peacekeeping mission there.

ROMOR-A adds 60 points to AV vs. HEAT only.

I still haven't been able to find adequate information on Super Blazer, which is the main ERA from the era of the Twilight War that remains a lacuna.
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  #40  
Old 10-02-2022, 02:11 PM
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I have a rough estimate for Super Blazer based on the M-55S protection claims, using numbers from Paul's site for the various armors and weapons cited.

The base tank is a T-55, with HF 60 and HS 12 (the ERA covers the glacis and front side of the hull, plus the turret; I'm using the hull numbers because that's what the discussion about the actual vehicle discusses).

According to Slovenia when the tanks were upgraded, they were protected from TOW over a 30 degree frontal arc, HOT over a 40 degree arc, and RPG-7 strikes over a 50 degree arc (the last of which probably describes the entire area protected by ERA).

Depending on HEAT warhead, the RPG-7 has Pen 51C to 140C, HOT is 137C to 198C, and TOW is 104C to 194C.

In order to be a little conservative in case of hyperbole and taking into account that other descriptions say Super Blazer also has some protective effect against KE, and based on the described weight of the system, I'd simply use Kontakt-5's stats (100 AV vs. HEAT, 60 vs. KE), with a similar weight since the limited array on the M-55S is said to be 2 tonnes, while Kontakt-5 over the entire front and side of a hull plus turret is 2.8 tonnes.

tl;dr - use Kontakt-5 stats for Super Blazer.
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2022, 07:58 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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OK, I've done a little more poking around and have some guesses on slightly less well-known systems.

Poland developed ERAWA-1 and ERAWA-2 in the early 1990s, fitting it onto T-72s and T-72 derivatives like the PT-91. For the PT-91, the original layout had ERAWA-1 on the turret, hull front, and hull sides. Later layouts used a mix of the two types.

ERAWA-1 provides AV 60 vs HEAT.
ERAWA-2 provides AV 100 vs HEAT and AV 35 vs KE.


One that had me confused for a while was Czech Republic's Dyna, because the numbers were incredibly high. Then I found that they had reported the overall performance of blocks mounted on a T-72, both the ERA's effect and the underlying composite armor. So, I was (eventually) able to take the reported numbers and back out the amount of the glacis plate. Dyna is used on the T-72M4CZ.

Dyna provides AV 130 vs HEAT and AV 35 vs KE.


Finally, and somewhat relevantly for current events, Ukraine has Nizh (knife, also known by its Russian name of Nozh) and Duplet ERAs. The numbers for these were calculated by taking a manufacturer's catalog page and averaging the effectiveness across the various HE and KE penetrators they listed. Nizh is used on the T-64 Bulat and Duplet on the T-84 Oplot.

Nizh provides AV 70 vs HEAT and AV 25 vs KE.
Duplet provides AV 90 vs HEAT and AV 30 vs KE.

Duplet can be fitted in up to three layers. I did not see estimates of the layering effectiveness, so to have some sort of rule that works within the game, each additional layer provides 50% more protection. A double layer is AV 135 vs HEAT and AV 45 vs KE and a triple layer is AV 180 vs HEAT and AV 60 vs KE. The T-84 Oplot has three layers on the hull sides and turret and two layers on the glacis.

All of these are likely somewhat optimistic numbers, but I feel like that tends to be somewhat true in general for technical specifications in T2K.
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  #42  
Old 10-06-2022, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChalkLine View Post
Kaktus is the only 'soviet' ERA that can be placed on a vehicle with less than 30mm of 350BHN RHA equivalent (Soviet armour was 550 BHN so it's about 1.3x equivalent armour) so it can go on much lighter vehicles. This is why it ended up on the BMP-3
I finally found some information on Kaktus from a NII Stali booklet, and got lucky because I only found it doing a search for 4S24, since that's the code used by the manufacturer for that ERA's blocks. They report that it's the same effectiveness as 4S20, just with half the explosive. 4S20 is Kontakt-1 (4S22 is Kontakt-5 and 4S23 is Relikt, just for reference). So, 80 points of AV vs HEAT and no additional armor against KE.
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  #43  
Old 10-07-2022, 11:49 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
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I'm probably going to put together a blog post some time in the next few weeks to summarize all the ERA systems I've been able to find information for. To add one more to the list, and one that's relevant in any of the Twilight War timelines, there's France's BRENUS. This was introduced by 1992 for the AMX-30, although only about half of France's tanks were fitted with it (the others had some modifications done so it could quickly be added if needed). Amazingly, Nexter was still advertising it in their 2018 catalog, with kits available for the AMX-30, M48, M60, T-72, M113, BMP-3, and CV90. It's a fairly light ERA, adding 80 to AV vs HEAT and 20 to AV vs KE.

The big one I'm still having trouble finding any solid information on is ARAT, both the M19 ARAT-1 and M32 ARAT-2. Numbers are classified, which makes sense, but I can't even find guesses.
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