RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-07-2009, 07:50 PM
rcaf_777's Avatar
rcaf_777 rcaf_777 is offline
Staff Headquarter Weinie
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Petawawa Ontario Canada
Posts: 982
Default US Forces in Alaska

Dose anybody that thought on this?

What were and are the units

Soviet Forces, US Forces, Canadian? Ect
__________________
I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-07-2009, 08:30 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Eastern U.P. on the edge of Civilization.
Posts: 1,086
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcaf_777
Dose anybody that thought on this?

What were and are the units

Soviet Forces, US Forces, Canadian? Ect
Would you want the bs that they have in the canon.

From memory their was an Corps HQ, remains of the 10th Mountain Division, and the remains of the 1st and 2nd Artic Recon Brigade were the US Army units there. That all of which I can remember at this time.

Now realistically, the 6th Light Infantry would of never left up there for Germany, maybe for Korea, but not for Germany. With being so close to the Soviet Union this unit would of more than likely, stay in place as a reaction force.

Just my thoughts on it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-07-2009, 08:49 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,687
Default

If memory serves, the Soviets have an entire corps isolated at Anchorage. I don't have the impression that Allied forces (US and maybe some Canadians) actually have the Soviets under siege at Anchorage in late 2000. I think the sheer distances involved in Alaska and the chaotic state of the world have more to do with the isolation of the Soviets in Anchorage than any action by Americans. Juneau is supposedly under control of US forces, for whatever that is worth. There are some Soviets isolated along the coast of British Columbia, too.

Webstral
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Eastern U.P. on the edge of Civilization.
Posts: 1,086
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webstral
If memory serves, the Soviets have an entire corps isolated at Anchorage. I don't have the impression that Allied forces (US and maybe some Canadians) actually have the Soviets under siege at Anchorage in late 2000. I think the sheer distances involved in Alaska and the chaotic state of the world have more to do with the isolation of the Soviets in Anchorage than any action by Americans. Juneau is supposedly under control of US forces, for whatever that is worth. There are some Soviets isolated along the coast of British Columbia, too.

Webstral
The US Army only had only one under size Corps in Alaska, and they were spread out.

As for Canadian I don't recall any being mention.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-08-2009, 05:18 AM
General Pain's Avatar
General Pain General Pain is offline
...not exactly open casket material
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tiger City
Posts: 1,953
Send a message via MSN to General Pain
Default well as some of u know...

..our group doesn't follow cannon very much.

U should talk to HQ if you wan't his "alternative" sollution to Alaska.
(personally I think it's pretty good)

If memory serves me right:

CIVGOV forces in the oilproducing areas in the north
MILGOV forces in the south
TSARIST/RUSSIAN forces in the south
LOCAL SEPERATISTS or ANARCHY in the rest
__________________
The Big Book of War - Twilight 2000 Filedump Site
Guns don't kill people,apes with guns do.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-09-2009, 01:06 PM
chico20854's Avatar
chico20854 chico20854 is offline
Your Friendly 92Y20!
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 346
Default

We are using a modified version of the Canon orbat:

US Forces:

X Corps (subordinate to 9th Army at Ft. Lewis, WA):

47th Infantry Division - MN, IA, IL, and WI NG
1st Minnesota Infantry Brigade:
1 -94th Armor Bn: M60A4, M113, M106
1 -135th Infantry Bn:
2 -135th Infantry Bn:
1 -136th Infantry Bn:
34th Iowa Infantry Brigade:
1 -133rd Infantry Bn:
2 -133rd Mech Infantry Bn: M113, M106, M901
1 -168th Infantry Bn:
66th Illinois Infantry Brigade:
1 -123rd Infantry Bn:
2 -130th Infantry Bn:
3 -130th Infantry Bn:
1 -127th Infantry Bn (WI NG):
47th Aviation Brigade - MN NG:
1 -147th Attack Helicopter Bn - WI NG: 21 AH1V, 13 OH6D, 3 UH1H
D Co/147th Aviation Rgt - MN NG: 15 UH1H
E Co/147th Aviation Rgt - IA NG: 15 UH1H
1st Sqn, 194th Cavalry Rgt - MN NG: M60A4, M113, M106, AH1V, OH6D, UH1H
47th Divarty - MN NG:
2 -123rd Field Artillery Bn: IL NG: 24 M101 105mm towed
1 -175th Field Artillery Bn: MN NG: 24 M101 105mm towed
1 -194th Field Artillery Bn: IA NG: 24 M101 105mm towed
1 -151st Field Artillery Bn: MN NG: 16 M198, 9 MLRS (5-ton truck)
47th ID Discom - MN NG:
682nd Combat Engineer Bn - MN NG: 4 dozers, 8 AVLB, 8 CEV, 4 M88, 12 MAB (bridge)
1 -202nd Air Defense Bn - IL NG: 18 towed PIVAD, 18 Avenger
147th Military Intelligence Bn (CEWI) - MN NG:
47th Military Police Co. - MN NG:
47th Chemical Co. - MN NG

11th Airborne Division - forming in 1997
1st Brigade -
1 -511th Parachute Infantry Bn:
2 -511th Parachute Infantry Bn:
3 -511th Parachute Infantry Bn:
2nd Brigade -
1 -188th Parachute Infantry Bn:
2 -188th Parachute Infantry Bn:
3 -188th Parachute Infantry Bn:
3rd Brigade -
3 -503rd Parachute Infantry Bn:
2 -506th Parachute Infantry Bn:
3 -506th Parachute Infantry Bn:
11th Divarty - 1, 2, 3 -457th Field Artillery Rgt (Airborne): 6 M101 each
11th Combat Aviation Brigade (Airborne):
6th Sqn, 17th Cavalry Rgt:
1 -11th Attack Helicopter Bn:
2 -11th Aviation Bn:
11th Discom (Airborne):
1 -73rd Armor Bn (Airborne):
127th Combat Engineer Bn (Airborne):
??? Air Defense Bn (Airborne):
11th Military Intelligence Bn (Airborne):
11th Military Police Co. (Airborne):
11th Chemical Co. (Airborne


172nd Infantry Brigade (Arctic)
3 -508th Parachute Infantry Bn:
1 -4th Infantry Bn: M5 RACV, XM22 PCAC, XM23 AACV
2 -4th Infantry Bn: M5 RACV, XM22 PCAC, XM23 AACV
2 -136th Field Artillery Bn: 24 M102 105mm towed
Troop C, 91st Cavalry: M5 RACV, XM22 PCAC, XM23 AACV, AH-6D
891st Engineer Co
562nd Engineer Co

1st Infantry Brigade (Arctic Recon) - Alaska NG:
1 -297th Infantry (Mech): M113, Bv-206
2 -297th Infantry (Scout)
3 -297th Infantry (Scout)
1 -207th Aviation Bn: UH-1H, CH-47

2nd Infantry Brigade (Arctic Recon) - Alaska NG:
4 -297th Infantry (Scout)
5 -297th Infantry (Scout)
6 -297th Infantry (Scout)
2 -207th Aviation Bn: UH-1H, CH-47

Our reasoning: 6th ID ends up in Germany via way of Norway in canon. It goes to Norway in spring 97 as reinforcements for the drive on Murmansk. 47th ID, composed of troops from the northern Midwest who are more used to the cold than average Americans, takes over the role of defense of Alaska from the 6th. 11th Airborne is training up during the TDM and is brought into Alaska as emergency reinforcements. It is understrength in troops and equipment. The 172nd IB is a test & evaluation unit to try the new hovercraft, described in the v2 US Army Vehicle Guide. It was not originally roled to have a primary combat role - it's role was similar to the 9th ID in the mid 80s when the Army was trying different light motorized concepts. (Yes, I realize that one of the brigades of 6th ID assumed the lineage & honors of the 172nd, so there will have to be a little reflagging/redesignation in the 6th ID, but its largely irrelevant for our purposes).

USAF Alaska Air Command has the 343rd Tactical Fighter Wing flying A-10s out of Eilson AFB (18th Tactical Fighter Sqn, 11th & 25th Tactical Air Support Sqns), the 21st Tactical Fighter Wing flying F-15s from Elmendorf, Galena & King Salmon (43rd & 54th Tactical Fighter Sqns), the 616th Tactical Airlift Wing flying C-130s & C-12s from Elmendorf (17th Tactical Airlift Squadron), and the 962nd Airborne Command & Control Squadron with 3 E-3s flying air control missions. Additional tactical, strategic & airlift forces would also be found transiting Alaska (it's on the great circle route from the Pacific NW to Korea and a great jumping off & early landing spot for bomber raids over the Arctic and into Siberia).

We haven't finalized the Canadians yet.

On the Soviet side, the Aluetian Front deploys the 51st Army (which really has a tough mission - defense of the area from the Kuriles to the shores of the Arctic Ocean). It splits off the 25th Army Corps (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatka) for the Alaska op.

It has (and this orbat isn't finalized yet, there may likely be more independent regiments and brigades):

22nd "Krasnodar-Harbin" Motor-Rifle Division (Dolinsk) Cat B
- 211th MRR
- 246th MRR
- 304th MRR
- 59th TR
- 157th Artillery Rgt
- 1006th Anti-Aircraft Missile Rgt
- 309th Independent Missile Bn
- 617th Independent Recon Bn
- 765th Independent Engineer Bn

33rd Motor-Rifle Division (Khomutovo) Cat C
- 377th MRR (Aniva)
- 465th MRR (Leonidov)
- 389th MRR (Dachnoye)
- 192nd TR (Aniva): T-55
- 989th Artillery Rgt (Khomutovo)
- U/I Anti-Aircraft Missile Rgt (Khomutovo)
- U/I Independent Missile Bn
- 620th Independent Recon Bn
- 416th Independent Engineer Bn

79th 'Lyuban-Katowice-Donbas' Motor-Rifle Division (Poronaysk) Cat C
- 157th MRR (Gastello): T-34/85
- 179th MRR (Pobedino): T-34/85
- 165th "Yasskiy" Guards MRR: T-34/85
- 214th TR (Poronaysk): T-55
- 284th Artillery Rgt (Poronaysk)
- 1004th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Rgt (Pobedino)
- U/I Independent Missile Bn
- 615th Independent Recon Bn
- 43rd Independent Engineer Bn

87th Motor-Rifle Division (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatka) Cat D
- 257th Guards MRR
- 1378th MRR
- 1382nd MRR
- 1496th TR: T-55, BTR-50, 12 M-30
- 277th Artillery Rgt
- U/I Anti-Aircraft Artillery Rgt
- U/I Independent Missile Bn
- 226th Independent Recon Bn
- 357th Independent Engineer Bn

99th Motor-Rifle Division (Anadyr) Cat B
- 1323rd MRR (Anadyr)
- 1324th MRR (Anadyr)
- 1327th MRR (Anadyr)
- 1498th TR: T-55, BTR-50, 12 M-30
- 473rd Artillery Rgt
- 1003rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Rgt
- U/I Independent Missile Bn
- 618th Independent Recon Bn
- 20th Independent Engineer Bn

18th Machinegun-Artillery Division (Iturup) Cat A (static defense of the Kuriles)
- 46th MG-Arty Rgt (Kunashir)
- 49th MG-Arty Rgt (Kunashir)
- 484th MG-Arty Rgt (Iturup): 2 fortress bns, mobile bn
- 802nd Independent Tank Bn (Iturup): 31 T-72
- 264th Independent Mobile Bn (Kunashir): 20 T-72, 24 BMP-2
- 203rd Independent Engineer Bn (Iturup)

75th Missile Bde (Yuzhno Sakhalinsk or Novosysoyevka): SS-21
567th Independent Howitzer Rgt (Yuzhno Sakhalinsk)
921st Artillery Rgt (Petropavlovsk-Kamchatka)
U/I Independent Engineer Sapper Rgt (Yuzhno Sakhalinsk)
280th Independent "Ussuri" Engineer Bn (Anadyr)

We haven't determined yet what reinforcements it may get, from within the Far Eastern TVD or from the high command's reserves. Likely there will be some airborne or air assault units and possibly the Pacific Fleet's 55th Naval Infantry Division:

55th "Mozyrskaya" Marine Division (Vladivostok)
- 83rd Marine Rgt
- 106th Marine Rgt
- 165th Marine Rgt
- 26th "Leningrad" TR
- 84th Artillery Rgt
- 417th Anti-Aircraft Missile Rgt
- 263rd Independent Missile Bn: 4 SS-21

Also note that we are presuming that the Japanese, with US support, invade the southern Kuriles!

On the air side, air defense is provided by elements of the PVO's 11th Air Army, based out of Khabarovsk. It has in the area:

308th Fighter Rgt PVO (Sovetskaya Gavan', Primorskiy Kray): MiG-23MLD
387th Fighter Rgt PVO (Burevestnik, Iturup): MiG-23MLD

24th PVO Division (Petropavlovsk):
- 865th Fighter Rgt PVO (Yelizovo, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatka): MiG-31
- U/I SAM Brigade

40th PVO Division (Dolinsk):
- 777th Fighter Rgt PVO (Matrosovo, Sakhalin): Su-15TM
- 365th Fighter Rgt PVO (Sokol airfield, Dolinsk): MiG-31
- 528th Fighter Rgt PVO (Leonidovo, Sakhalin): Su-27

On the attack air side, things are less defined - Far Eastern TVD has been in action for almost 2 years nonstop by the time the Alaska operation kicks off, and the augmentees from the rest of the USSR returned to their home bases when war broke out in the west.

Tactical air would come from the 1st Air Army in Khabarovsk: (starting locations are here, what their location & condition is by the time the Alaska op kicks off hasn't been worked out yet).

7th Guards Independent Shturmovik Rgt (Galenki): Su-25
56th Recon Rgt (Varfolomeyevka): MiG-25RB, Su-24MR)
187th Independent Shturmovik Rgt (Chernigovka): Su-25)
257th Independent Mixed Rgt (Khabarovsk) An-12, An-26, Mi-8T
293rd Recon Rgt (Vozzhayevka, Belogorsk district): Su-17M3R, MiG-25
799th Recon Rgt (Varfolomeyevka): Su-24MR
unknown ECM sqn. (Khabarovsk): Su-24PP, Su-24MP

20th Fighter Division (Druzhba)
- 216th Fighter Rgt (Kalinovka, near Khabarovsk): Su-27
- 404th Fighter Rgt (Orlovka): MiG-29
- 821st Fighter Rgt (Spassk-Dalniy): MiG-23MLD

33rd "Khinganskaya" Fighter-Bomber Division (Pereyaslavka)
- 22nd Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Birofeld): Su-17
- 26th Guards Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Uchastok): Su-17M3
- 229th Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Birofeld): Su-17M
- 300th Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Pereyaslavka): MiG-27

40th Fighter Division (Belogorsk)
- 41st Fighter Rgt (Orlovka): MiG-29
- unknown Fighter Rgt (Belogorsk):

83rd Fighter-Bomber Division (Pereyaslavka-Verino)
- 42nd Bomber Rgt (Pereyaslavka [Verino]): Su-24)
- 277th "Mlavskiy" Bomber Rgt (Khurba [Komsomolsk-na-Amure]): Su-24
- 302nd Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Pereyaslavka): Su-17M3, converting to Su-24

303rd "Smolensk" Fighter-Bomber Division (Ussuri)
- 18th Guards "Vitebsk" Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Galenki): MiG-27D/M
- 224th Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Ozernaya Pad' [Kremovo]): MiG-27
- 523rd "Orscha" Fighter-Bomber Rgt (Vozdvizhenka): Su-17M4


Long range transports from the 14th Transport Division (Aeroflot), from Irkutsk:
-1st MVD Transport Regiment (50 IL-76MD)
-1st Aeroflot Transport Regiment (45 IL-76M)
-3rd Aeroflot Transport Regiment (45 IL-76MD)

There could also be long-range bombers from both Long Range Aviation (equivalent to SAC) or Naval Aviation available.

On the naval side, not much in the way of combatants. The Pacific Fleet dies fairly early in the war, and the remnants of the surface fleet are penned up in Petropovlovsk and Vladivostok. The Alaska op is mounted with a breakout of hundreds of fishing trawlers from Petropovlosk (to get through the minefields laid by the US), and suffers greatly from the interdiction of one of the US battleships. We'll work out more details when we get farther along with our work.

As always, you are free to use or discard this as you choose!
__________________
I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-09-2009, 01:35 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Eastern U.P. on the edge of Civilization.
Posts: 1,086
Default

Is the airborne battalion of the 172nd a new battalion? Just asking since the 6th ID, much like the 7th ID, and 10th Mountain had never reach their authorized strengths. All of them would have to round out brigade. So you moving a Division with 2 Brigades and sending it Norway. With the position that the Division was in, I have always found it hard to send thing unit half-way across the world, to only bring in another unit who has to learn everything fresh, of course they are from Minnesota and like so they will be ahead of the learning curve. Especially when you consider the 10th Mountain Division is in the same shape, and seem more of a logical choice to move to Norway, it is closer, and not in area that is easily access by Soviet forces.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-09-2009, 02:49 PM
chico20854's Avatar
chico20854 chico20854 is offline
Your Friendly 92Y20!
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
Is the airborne battalion of the 172nd a new battalion? Just asking since the 6th ID, much like the 7th ID, and 10th Mountain had never reach their authorized strengths. All of them would have to round out brigade. So you moving a Division with 2 Brigades and sending it Norway. With the position that the Division was in, I have always found it hard to send thing unit half-way across the world, to only bring in another unit who has to learn everything fresh, of course they are from Minnesota and like so they will be ahead of the learning curve. Especially when you consider the 10th Mountain Division is in the same shape, and seem more of a logical choice to move to Norway, it is closer, and not in area that is easily access by Soviet forces.
It's a new airborne battalion.

In our writeup for the buildup of the US Army before the war, we brought the 6th & 10th Divisions up to 3 brigades each. This was a result of the perception after Desert Storm that the Guard round-out brigade concept didn't work - that the Round Out units were unable to be maintained at the proper readiness to be able to deploy at essentially a moment's notice. Therefore, 6th, 10th & 24th ID's stood up new active-duty brigades, while the former round out brigades were used in some of the polygot divisions formed in 1996 and 1997, or, in the case of the 48th IB, deployed as an independent brigade. 5th ID & 1st Cav retained their roundout brigades because there was not enough equipment to stand up new brigades, and the war came before the new active-duty brigades could be formed (their cadres eventually formed the new 4th AD, which was at NTC and similar facilities during the TDM and never deployed outside CONUS).

We have 10th Mountain deploying to Norway in the fall of 1996 and 6th coming the next Spring. IMHO it makes sense to move a National Guard unit, with its (at least perceived, if not real) lower level of readiness & standard of equipment, to a defensive mission in the US than to send it overseas for an offensive mission. In fact, we might write it up as the 47th was sent to Alaska after the outbreak of war and spent the winter doing Arctic training, acting as OPFOR for the 172nd's now-frantic doctrinal development exercises, and reinforcing 6th ID. When the situation in Norway got to the point that another division was needed, the commanders in Alaska agreed that 6th ID was the more ready and sent it. The decision to pull troops out of Alaska was taken in a global context - the need for more troops in Norway for the Murmansk offensive, the mistaken belief that the global nature of the war at that point (Norway, Poland, Balkans, Iran, China, Korea) made it unlikely that the Soviets would open a new front in Alaska, the growing strength & competence of the 172nd, all pointed to the conclusion that maintaining what was effectively a full strength corps in Alaska was not the effective use of the available troops. Mitigating that risk too was the growing strength of the 11th and 17th Airborne Divisions, which could (and the 11th was) flown in at short notice to reinforce US Army Alaska in an emergency.
__________________
I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-09-2009, 03:40 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854
We are using a modified version of the Canon orbat: ...
As always, you are free to use or discard this as you choose!
Good gravy, Chico! That's a heck of a lot of work! Well done.

Webstral
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Grimace Grimace is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montana
Posts: 287
Send a message via ICQ to Grimace Send a message via AIM to Grimace Send a message via Yahoo to Grimace
Default

This would be right about the time that Antenna would be kicking me in the butt if he visited here much. I put a little work into, but not enough, an Alaska Sourcebook since I lived up there for so many years. I had previously collected the information for the units that Twilight had up there. There wasn't much for the American. None for Canada, and a mess of units from the Soviets, but they got around the strength discrepancies by having several units from the USSR defect and either go rogue or join NATO's side.

Basically, for America you've got:
10th Infantry Division
1st Infantry Brigade (Arctic Recon)
2nd Infantry Brigade (Arctic Recon)

That's it.

You had, at one time, in Alaska:
the 104th Infantry Division (Light) but now it's in the Montana-Idaho region
the 47th Infantry Division but now it's in the Washington-Oregon region


The Soviets, on the other hand, had:
7th Motorized Rifle Division
41st Motorized Rifle Division
14th Motorized Rifle Division
113th Motorized Rifle Division
147th Motorized Rifle Division
1st Arctic Mechanized Brigade
2nd Arctic Mechanized Brigade
1st Naval Infantry Brigade
18th Hovercraft Transport Regiment

In the "general area" is:
62nd Motorized Rifle Division - in British Columbia
114th Motorized Rifle Division - in Whitehorse - Yukon, Canada
120th Motorized Rifle Division - on Queen Charlotte Island (riiiiight), British Columbia


And was in Alaska at one time:
6th Guards Air Assault Division

Now they tried to change this enormous offset of forces by having both the 41st and 14th MRD change sides to NATO. They're supposedly in the Juneau region. (yeah....riiiiiight)

But that's what the books say. While I could see some of those units being in Alaska, I'm pretty sure that if they all were, Alaska wouldn't be in the hands of the Americans. Especially not with the forces the American had there.

Now realistically, there'd be a lot of local militia, a sizable contingent of Coast Guard, and the Air Forces available for the Americans. Plus I'm pretty sure there would be some Canadian forces involved as well.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-09-2009, 09:26 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,239
Default

And just who is feeding and supplying all those Russians, I want to know? Their situation seems pretty grim, IMO.

Lee.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-09-2009, 09:59 PM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is offline
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
And just who is feeding and supplying all those Russians, I want to know? Their situation seems pretty grim, IMO.

Lee.
Sarah Palin, of course. The Russians loaned her a helicopter and an assault rifle...
__________________
How did the universe get so weird? -- Michio Kaku

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-10-2009, 09:12 AM
jester jester is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Equaly at home in the water, the mountains and the desert.
Posts: 919
Default

All that crab you see on Deadliest Catch?
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-10-2009, 01:57 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,687
Default

In all seriousness, the logistical situation could be used to explain the otherwise inexplicable pattern in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest. The Soviets who have been cut off in Anchorage don't have the force of numbers one might think if they are out of ammunition, spare parts, fuel, etc. It doesn't take a lot of men with high-powered rifles to make passage through mountainous and forested areas too difficult to contemplate for an infantry-based force accustomed to fighting with AFV support. Again, the sheer distances involved in the Pacific Northwest might be the best defense the Allies have. The US forces at Fairbanks, limited though they are, probably have the enthusiastic support of the local population. The Soviets will have whatever support they can squeeze out of the locals. This makes a big difference.

After a certain time, the Soviets are going to be a lot more worried about securing enough food than about pressing an offensive for Mother Russia. Let's face it: Mother Russia hung them out to dry. It won't take long for the average rifleman to figure that out. Once that happens, morale will go into the toilet. Once that happens, it won't take much to put a stopper in any Soviet offensive action out of Anchorage cantonment. Although the ratio of forces might suggest, on the surface, total domination by the Soviets, I think there is a LOT more to the picture.

Webstral
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-10-2009, 05:10 PM
Grimace Grimace is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montana
Posts: 287
Send a message via ICQ to Grimace Send a message via AIM to Grimace Send a message via Yahoo to Grimace
Default

Well, truth be told, the Soviets hold the bread-basket of Alaska by holding the Anchorage area. Not only do they have access to port facilities, but they've got rivers that have fairly large salmon runs each year, AND they have the Matanuska Valley for growing their own foods. So food isn't necessarily one of their problems.

The range...distance...that constitutes Alaska probably has a large part to do with their lack of desire to make a push out of the Anchorage area. Where would they go to? North to Fairbanks to gain what? East into Canada to gain what? East to Canada to drive a really long distance south and into a well defended main body of the U.S.? Any of those options takes them away from the resources they have, away from port facilities where they still might get a meager trickle of supplies (if any), and puts them across not only vast distances where they have to expend precious fuel, but also into terrain not suitable for a lot of offensive actions.

The funny part is, as hard as it would be to fight their way out of the Anchorage area, at the same time it's equally hard for the U.S. forces to keep the Soviets hemmed in there. Sure they could have the passes covered during the summer. But come winter time, maintaining those chokepoints is going to get harder and harder. Without supplies coming in through Anchorage and any place on the Kenai Peninsula, everything would have to come up via the very long land route, or by plane. Both would be something that would get less and less common as the war went on. Places like Fairbanks, while having a great military base, would be without food and fuel in a very short time and would need everything shipped in from a very, very long way away.

So yes, while it might be hard for the Soviets, it would be even tougher on the Americans trying to hold the Soviets in.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-10-2009, 06:43 PM
Webstral's Avatar
Webstral Webstral is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace
Well, truth be told, the Soviets hold the bread-basket of Alaska by holding the Anchorage area. Not only do they have access to port facilities, but they've got rivers that have fairly large salmon runs each year, AND they have the Matanuska Valley for growing their own foods. So food isn't necessarily one of their problems.
Excellent points. And as mentioned in the un-quoted bits, where exactly is Eleventh Army going to go and for what reason? By the same token, as they already own some of the best agricultural land in Alaska, it's easy to see the Soviets becoming quite conservative. If they were to push up to Fairbanks and lose big-time, they might lose the whole show. Given that the Soviets have lots to lose and comparatively little to gain by attempting to capture the rest of Alaska, it's not hard to see why they have allowed themselves to be penned into the Anchorage cantonment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace
So yes, while it might be hard for the Soviets, it would be even tougher on the Americans trying to hold the Soviets in.
No doubt. Perhaps the whole idea that US forces have the Soviets bottled up at Anchorage is a bit of a euphemism. A few shots exchanged now and again with the Americans would serve to justify keeping Eleventh Army right where it is. The illusion of modest pressure by the Americans might help keep the Soviets somewhat cohesive without there being major actions. In turn, the Americans might keep small groups in the Anchorage vicinity so they can feel that something is being done. As is suggested in US Army Vehicle Guide and Howling Wilderness, by 1999 the whole show may have devolved into a pretense in which the real focus is to hold what everyone has and make it through the next long winter.

Webstral
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-10-2009, 10:45 PM
Targan's Avatar
Targan Targan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,506
Default

Communications (especially the lack of it) would influence the actions of Soviet commanders in Alaska too. If they were completely out of communication with a higher command I would imagine it would be an easier decision for the 11th Army commanders to just stay put and consolidate as best they can. If higher Soviet command did have communications with them they would be urging (or more likely flat out demanding) that the 11th Army maintain offensive operations.

By 2002 I think the Soviet forces in Alaska would be willing to cut a deal with US and Canadian commanders to withdraw back across the Bering Strait (if that was possible). Two things would make such a scenario more likely -
1: Word from Europe and the Middle East that the war in those regions had effectively ended (if there was any communication coming from those areas to Alaska at all) and;
2: Increasing numbers of Soviet units deserting, refusing orders or "going native".
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alaska, locations, united states, units


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternative Fighting Forces General Pain Twilight 2000 Forum 4 01-20-2009 08:17 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.