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Old 05-28-2009, 05:21 AM
Hybris Hybris is offline
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Default 4th soviet Guards Army

About 4th soviet guards army.

If i understand correctly so is this army a big reason to the failure of the spring 2000 offensive.

1. Does it mention anywhere from ware they received it's fuel from?
It's must be a huge source of supply if you are going to move an army with 1 TD and two MRD to Poland from white Russia.

2. Where ware these unit stationed prior to the move to Poland 2000.



Birger
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:23 AM
Fusilier Fusilier is offline
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Fuel was from reserves in Romania.
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:53 AM
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Found this.

According to one of the rumors in Escape from Kalisz,
"A vehicle driver tells you that the 4th Guards Tank Army was able to move so fast because it's running on gasoline! A whole month's output from the Ploesti oil fields in Romania was earmarked for the 4th Guards just so the Warsaw Pact would have one mobile army. There are thousands, maybe millions, of liters of it in the supply dumps of the division. A lot of supply officers are getting rich selling it to the black market."
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier
Fuel was from reserves in Romania.


with book sates that?
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:22 AM
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Escape from Kalisz module included in the 1st ed. boxed set.

If I remember correctly the 4th was stationed in Belarus prior to moving out to counter the 2000 offensive.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:37 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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If I remember correctly the 4th Guards Tank Army was part of Group of Tank Armies that were in reserve position. The other Army by 2000 had converted over to Cavalry. The 4th GTA even with Motorized Rifle Division was quite under strength too. I believe one of the Divisions of this the 4th GTA went on rampage shortly after entering Poland, the 9th Tank Division if I remember correctly.

The 22nd Soviet Cavalry Army, now that I remember the name of the Cavalry Army had over ran the positions of the 10th Soviet Guard Tank Division Which itself had been re-outfitted with T-55s, before it switch sides to NATO. In fact, I think many units of the 22nd Cavalry Army were themselves on the verge of declaring for NATO.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:22 PM
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Thanks gays
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:30 PM
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[QUOTE=Abbott Shaull]I believe one of the Divisions of this the 4th GTA went on rampage shortly after entering Poland, the 9th Tank Division if I remember correctly.

Which units were originally with the army when it moved from Belarus?

It sounds to you gays that it was more then the 3 units am talking about.
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:40 PM
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G2, 51D(M)
120100
120545 Jun 2000

ANNEX A (Enemy Dispositions) to INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE NO 142

References: Per para 1, Intel Est 142

1. Three major groupings of Warsaw Pact forces have been identified in Poland. These are, from north to south, Baltic Front, 1st Western Front, and 2nd Western Front. Together with Central Front in Czechoslovakia, these three fronts comprise the Western Strategic Direction (Western T.V.D.) of the Warsaw Pact, the headquarters of which is believed to be located in Lublin.

2. The recent offensive of German 3rd Army has caused considerable losses in the Baltic Front grouping, and thus the strengths listed can no longer be considered accurate.

3. While the front has been quiet in the areas of 1st and 2nd West Front, it is likely that some reserve formations have been detached from these groupings and have been shifted north to deal with the German Third Army breakthrough. Fuel shortages are likely to prevent the rapid completion of this redeployment.

4.The following abbreviations are used in this annex:
TD: Tank Division
GTD: Guards Tank Division
MRD: Motorised Rifle Division
GMRD: Guards Motorised Rifle Division
MarDiv: Marine Division
BGB: Border Guard Brigade
Unit identifications followed by (C) indicate units, which are assessed as having been converted entirely to horsed cavalry.

NORTHERN POLAND: Baltic Front HQ: Malbork
1st Polish Army, HQ: Gdynia
Pol. 2nd MRD(C) (500 men): Wicko
Pol. 3rd MRD(C) (2,000 men): Lebork
Pol. 9th MRD (3,000 men, 10 tanks): Koscierzyna
Pol. 12th MRD(C) (2,000 men): Starogard
Pol. 19th MRD(C) (500 men): Malbork
Pol. 3 BGB (500 men): Gdynia
Pol. 12th BGB (500 men): Dabrowka
2nd Polish Army, HQ: Pita
Pol. 1st MRD (4,000 men, 20 tanks): Pita
Pol. 7th MarDiv (500 men): Czarnkow
Pol. 13th MRD(C) (1,000 men): Jastrowie
Pol. 4th BGB(C) (400 men): Chodziez
Pol. 5th BGB (500 men): Wronki

WEST CENTRAL POLAND: 1st Western Front, HQ: Poznan
1st Soviet Guards Tank Army, HQ: Gorzow Wielkop
Sov. 9th GTD (4,000 men, 25 tanks): Swiecko
Sov. 11th GTD (500 men, 5 tanks): Sulechow
Sov. 25th TD (1,000 men, 5 tanks): Swiebodzin
Sov. 1st TD (3,000 men, 10 tanks): Rzepin
1st Polish Tank Army, HQ: Poznan
Pol. 5th TD (4,000 men, 35 tanks): Lwowek
Pol. 10th TD (2,000 men, 25 tanks): Steszew
Pol. 17th MRD(C) (3,000 men): Smigiel
Pol. 8th BGB (500 men): Poznan
Pol. 7th BGB (1,000 men): Kornik
8th Soviet Guards Army HQ: Gorlitz, Germany
Sov. 131st MRD (2,000 men, 15 tanks): Skwierzyna
Sov. 20th GMRD(C) (1,000 men): Miedyrzecz
Sov. 39th GMRD (3,000 men, 25 tanks): Kostrzyn

SOUTHWEST POLAND: 2nd West Front HQ: Legnica
2nd Soviet Guards Army, HQ: Gorlitz, Germany
Sov. 94th GMRD(C) (500 men): Swiebodzin
Sov. 21st GMRD (1,000 men, 5 tanks): Bautzen, Germany
Sov. 103rd MRD (4,000 men, 30 tanks): Cottbus, Germany
Sov. 117th MRD(C) (100 men): Gorlitz, Germany
Sov. 157th MRD (1,000 men, 5 tanks): Hoverswerda, Germany
20th Soviet Guards Army HQ: Gubin
Sov. 132nd MRD(C) (3,000 men): Peitz, Germany
Sov. 12th GMRD (4,000 men, 30 tanks): Gubin
3rd Soviet Shock Army HQ: Legnica
Sov. 12th GTD (2,000 men, 20 tanks): Legnica
Sov. 129th MRD (3,000 men, 5 tanks): Jelenia Gora
Sov. 127th MRD(C) (2,000 men): Glogow
Interior Forces:
Pol. 6th BGB (500 men): Lodz
Pol. 11th BGB(C) (500 men): Lublin

OTHER ARMED COMBATANT FORCES:

Polish 14th MRD: Last reported strength 2,000 men and 5 operational tanks. Commanding officer (Col. Julian Filipowicz) is believed to have refused orders to join forces moving against the allied concentration on the Baltic coast, and to have set up a semi-independent region in the vicinity of Gliwice. Agents attempting to open relations with him have not returned, and he must be assumed to be hostile to all parties to the war.

Polish 1st Free Legion (formerly 1st Border Guard Brigade): Last reported strength 600 men. Actively supports the Polish Government in exile, and has on occasion cooperated with DIA intelligence operations. Commanded by a former sergeant (S. I. Mastelarz). Radio contact recently lost with this unit. Believed to be operating in the area between Poznan and Glogow.

Polish 2nd Free Legion (formerly 10th Border Guard Brigade): Last reported strength 200 men. Commanded by Major M. K. Sikorski. Actively supports the Polish Government in exile and has engaged in extensive guerrilla attacks against Soviet troop convoys. Believed now to be operating in the area between Chojnice and Malbork.

Polish 8th Motorised Division: Last reported strength 2,000 men. Previously served as garrison of the city of Krakow. When Krakow declared itself a free city, the division apparently did not leave the city and is presumed to form the cadre of the city's defensive force, which the former division commander, Major General Zygmunt Bohusz-Szyszko, may now be commanding.

Soviet 10th Guards Tank division: Last reported strength 1,000 men and six operational tanks. Unit has nominally defected, but current attitude of unit and exact nature of command structure not known. There have been reports of contacts between senior officers of the unit and the CIA. Believed to be in the vicinity of Warsaw.

Soviet 6th Guards Motorised Rifle Division: Last reported strength 2,000 men and 10 operational tanks. Commanding officer Colonel Ya. N. Chekanov. An outstanding combat unit, three months ago the unit withdrew from the lines in the area between Frankfurt and Gorlitz, apparently without orders, and has not answered numerous radio communications from Warsaw Pact command. Current location and disposition unknown.

Soviet 9th Tank Division: Last reported strength 2,000 men. Unit mutinied in September of 1999 and later disintegrated into smaller bands of armed marauders, now believed to infest the area between Lodz and Czestochowa.

Soviet 207th Motorised Rifle Division: Last reported strength 600 men. Attached to Polish 1st Army but sustained serious losses in the attacks by German 3rd Army. Believed to have disintegrated, and bands of deserters may now infest the area between Pila and Bydgoszcz, the last reported position of the division.


Also a summary of enemy units within the Kalisz area as of 17JUL00:

Sov 22nd Cavalry Army at Torun last in Byelorussia – Location believed to be in the Torun Area
Sov 89th Cavalry Division last been identified as being deep in Byelorussia – location unknown
Sov 96th Cavalry Division – last encountered at Krosniewice
Sov 43rd Cavalry Division – Location unknown
Pol 8th Border Guard Brigade location unknown

Sov 4th Guards Tank Army
Sov 21st Motorised Rifle Division - Kalisz
Sov 20th Tank Division last reported in Ukraine – last encountered by 1st brigade in the Ozorkow / Uniejow area.
Sov 124th Motorised Rifle Division – on the road between Kalisz and Sieradz
Pol 10th Tank Division - Kalisz
Pol 6th Border Guard Brigade – Zgierz
Pol 11th Border Guard Brigade formerly at Lublin – now Zdunska Wola / Lask

Sov 3rd Shock Army
Sov 12th Guards Tank Division had been in reserve near Legnica – location unknown
Sov 127th Cavalry Division – location unknown
Sov 129th Motorised Rifle Division – location unknown
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:07 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Looks as if the 4th GTA was position to move either north or south if it was in the Ukraine, that not much was happen to the south....
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybris
Thanks gays
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybris
It sounds to you gays that it was more then the 3 units am talking about.
HAH! I was eating when I read these and now I've had to wipe my screen down.

Priceless.
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:17 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Didn't notice what he had typed until I read the quotes...hmmm.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:54 AM
Hybris Hybris is offline
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Now I am a happy camper with all the information I need.


Thanks
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:15 PM
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One question I’ve always had about Fourth Guards Tank Army is how this particular fight came about. To what degree did the Soviets know about the planned Summer 2000 offensive by NATO? To what degree was Fourth Guards Tank Army prepped and stocked as an operational matter-of-course? To what degree was a gasoline-run Fourth Guards Tank Army intended for a Soviet offensive—a mission that was changed as a consequence of the NATO offensive? The answer is probably a combination of all three possibilities, as they naturally blend into each other. Still, it would be interesting to know how much the Soviets knew about NATO intentions. By the same token, how serious were the Soviets about using their mobile reserve offensively, if NATO did nothing but stand pat during the first part of the 2000 campaign season?

Webstral
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:59 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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It would make sense that the Soviets High Command or what was left was planning for Offensive in their own right. Or were there two offensives planned. First one involving the 22nd Cavalry Army who were suppose to sweep aside units that were no longer responding, and then 4th Guards Tank Army would then make it way to the front.

Don't think the Soviet had much advance notice, we have to remember after the initial strike by the XI Corps that the advance would be stop and go. They would have to stop to hole up, and set up the stills for a while to fill gas tanks. I don't think they had much notice in advance, due to the fact the loyalty of the Poles was questionable at best, and even Soviet units had stop accepting orders too along the line.

The 22nd Cavalry Army seemed to have gotten to their objectives just a tad too late, but soon enough to effective close a trap. To me it seems like the 5th Mechanized had surge forward sooner then expected. The plan seemed to have 22nd Cavalry and 3rd Shock Armies to pin down the 5th while the 4th went on through to help handle the XI Corps and 3rd German Army. Also one has to remember the 8th Mechanized had been on break out too.

I think both sides were quite unaware of the planned offensives the other side was planning, just happen the NATO launched their first. Then the counter-offensive that the Pact had to launch put other plans behind.
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull
I think both sides were quite unaware of the planned offensives the other side was planning, just happen the NATO launched their first. Then the counter-offensive that the Pact had to launch put other plans behind.
The NATO offensive probably started first because they had a shorter line of supply.
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Old 05-30-2009, 07:18 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
The NATO offensive probably started first because they had a shorter line of supply.
More than likely, and at the time of the start of the offensive, also many of the units in question were still accepting orders more readily too. Where the Soviets didn't have that much luck, and what they had left of combat effective units(those that were willing to accept their orders) were smashed against the 5th Mechanized and/or the rest of the XI Corps(minus the 8th Mechanized).

By the end of the Summer Offensive of 2000, those Commanders who were still in contact with higher HQs on both sides realize that an offensive would place in peril what they had ecked out the last year or so. Which is why many of those units, that had previously stop accepting orders had done so, the local commander was more concern of conserving his manpower, and to make condition better local for their survival. No matter if the commander had a desire to return their unit back home or stay put, they knew if they had to move they would have to do in such a way to limit the impact of the units infusion into other areas.

Many places, regardless what they may think of the unit in charge at the time, they still didn't like too see units move away either. The locals may not like the local Ukrainian unit, but it lot better than the bands of marauders who use to visit for their ransoms. That all through out Germany/Austria eastward. It is one of the reason why French Union took steps to secure areas east of it own border.

Just some thoughts.
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