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Old 09-14-2008, 11:54 AM
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Default French Orbat

I never liked the french Orbat in twilight and never understood how they came up with it. As I have made one, I leave it to you and hope it might interest some.

It can be open to critics no doubt but I think it's not too bad .


FRANCE

In my world the French left Tahiti and concentrated their forces on New Caledonia (protecting the nickel mines there).

I also added several support units and divided the 4th DAM among its various regiments.
At least one regiment was formed from training units: 507th RCh
1st RPIMa (similar to SEAL), you’ll find some in the DIMa too.
Some are missing: 3rd RA, 4th RA, 15th RA, 32nd RA, 74th RA (Pluton Nuclear Missile)
401st RA, 402nd RA, 403rd RA (I-Hawk missile)
The Division Daguet was constituted during the 1st Gulf War, I like the idea of having it active again in the twilight war.

You also might argue that some equipments are not right but this is due to the continuous (if limited) production of weaponry in France (Weapon factories are located in the central mountain range and this was not subjected to nukes). Also as I understand it France entered in an arm race of her own. Still she couldn’t put Leclerc tanks in all units but the remaining AMX-30 were brought up to Brenus standards. AMX-10Ps are a rare sight as most French units ride the VAB. Moreover, you should have several VBL M11.

The FAR remain in the Middle East but the 11th DP was brought back to secure the southern border with Spain.

I added several Belgian units and the divisions were created from the territorial reserve. They kept their own equipments (actually as Liege was not destroyed the FN is could still be functional at Herstal). I would assume the 7th Mechanized brigade and the 16th division to join the Dutch (they are Flemish speakers).

The Gendarmerie is playing a major role in keeping the country together. Actually, in my game, it replaced the police and brought back its units to strength using the 50000 reserve personnel. GIGN (counter terrorist)

The Air force Orbat is quite big but France remained outside of the war after all. Nevertheless, the country lost several airplanes, and I would assume France to retain a few Mirage IV and various Jaguars (didn’t fit my game so). The F-16s were added from Belgium.
The Air force commands were all merged into one.

The navy was badly hit when the nukes fell on the Atlantic coast. Still many ships survived and the French could constitute several naval groups. Concerning the aircraft carrier, the Richelieu would have been lost when Toulon was nuked in place of Marseille (how do you think Marseille survived?). The Clemenceau would have been sunk at Brest and the Foch would have been lost in the Mediterranean. One SSBN might still be around as one is always at see. The others could have been destroyed at Lorient. Marseille has a naval dockyard.

I would assume the French speaking Belgium to be organized, but the Flemish part might be disputed or facing unrest. Luxembourg will have joined and Saarland (Germany) would be organized (long time friendship with France).

Do as you see fit for the location of units, I changed it slightly or didn’t care

ALAT (Army Light Aircraft, in fact helicopters)
RIMAP (Pacific Naval Infantry Regiment)
RSMa (Naval Support/Supply Regiment)
RPIMa (Naval Airborne Infantry Regiment)
REI (Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment)
REC (Foreign Legion Cavalry Regiment)
REP (Foreign Legion Paratrooper Regiment)
RIMa (Naval Infantry Regiment): BIMa are battalions
RIAOM (Overseas Combined Armed Regiment)
DBLE (Foreign Legion Half Brigade, roughly Battalion+)
RG (Engineer Regiment)
RH (Hussar Regiment, recon)
RA (Artillery Regiment)
RCh (Chasseur Regiment, armoured)
RHC (Helicopter Regiment)
DB (Armored Division)
DBL (Light Armored Division)
DP (Airborne Division)
DA (Alpine Division)
DI (Infantry Division)
DIMa (Naval Infantry Division)

BA (Air Base), a few were nuked


ARMY
Pacific Command (New Caledonia)
- 1st RIMAP (Régiment d’Infanterie de Marine du Pacifique)
Manpower: 900
Assets: 6 ERC-90, 4 155FH
- 2nd RIMAP
Manpower: 650
Indian Ocean Regional Command (La Réunion)
- 4th RSMa
Manpower : 160
- 2nd RPIMa
Manpower: 500
French Guyana Regional Command
- 3rd RSMa (Cayenne)
Manpower: 350
- 3rd REI (Kourou)
Manpower: 450
- 9th RIMa (Cayenne)
Manpower: 450
Carribean Regional Command
- 1st RSMa (Martinique)
Manpower : 190
- 33rd RIM (Martinique)
Manpower: 350
- 41st BIMa (Guadeloupe)
Manpower : 170
East Africa Regional Command (Djibouti)
- 5th RIAOM
Manpower: 450
Assets: 4 155FH
- 13th DBLE
Manpower: 500
Assets: 15 ERC-90
- Det ALAT “Drakkar”
Manpower: 130
Assets: 2 AS-355, 2 SA-342, 3 AS-332
Western Africa Regional Command
- 6th BIMa (Gabon)
Manpower: 400
- 23rd BIMa (Senegal)
Manpower: 350
- 43rd BIMa (Cameroon)
Manpower: 350
- Det ALAT “Cougar”
Manpower: 160
Assets: 2 AS-355, 5 AS-332
1st Army Corps (Interior Regions)
- 72nd BIMa (Marseille)
Manpower: 300
- 1st RG
Manpower: 290
Assets: 5 EBG
- 8th RH (Corps recon)
Manpower: 270
Assets: 7 ERC-90
- 57th RA
Manpower: 380
Assets: 13 AMX-Roland
- 507th RCh (composed from school units)
Manpower: 450
Assets: 15 AMX-30 Brenus
- 1st RPIMa (Bayonne/Special Forces)
Manpower: 500
- 6th RHC
Manpower: 950
Assets: 11 SA-342, 8 Tirge PAH-2, 7 AS-332
- 1st DB (Pau)
Manpower: 2800
Assets: 16 Leclerc, AMX-10P, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 7th DB (Besançon)
Manpower: 4100
Assets: 22 AMX-30 Brenus, AMX-10P, VAB, AUF-1 GCT, MLRS
- 12th DBL (Saumur)
Manpower: 2900
Assets: 22 AMX-10RC, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 14th DBL (Montpellier)
Manpower: 4200
Assets: 24 AMX-10RC, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 11th DP (Toulouse)
Manpower: 4200
Assets: 36 ERC-90, VAB, 155FH
- 27th DA (Grenoble)
Manpower: 4400
Assets: 29 ERC-90, Bv-206, VAB, 155FH
2nd Army Corps (Germany)
- 2nd RG
Manpower: 610
Assets: 12 EBG
- 3rd RH (Corps recon)
Manpower: 550
Assets: 35 AMX-10RC
- 51st RA
Manpower: 130
Assets: 7 AMX-Roland
- 53rd RA
Manpower: 300
Assets: 9 AMX-Roland
- 11th RCh (former Berlin Regiment)
Manpower: 300
Assets: 19 AMX-30 Brenus
- 1st RHC
Manpower: 950
Assets: 7 SA-342, 5 Tigre PAH-2, 5 AS-332
- 1st Logistic Brigade
Manpower: 800
- 3rd DB (Aachen)
Manpower: 4100
Assets: 18 Leclerc, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 5th DB (Worms)
Manpower: 4200
Assets: 24 Leclerc, AMX-10P, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 15th DI (Koblenz)
Manpower: 3900
3rd Army Corps (Belgium/North)
- 5th RG
Manpower: 460
Assets: 5 EBG
- 2nd RH (Corps Recon)
Manpower: 160
Assets: 12 AMX-10RC
- 54th RA
Manpower: 140
Assets: 6 AMX-Roland
- 58th RA
Manpower: 190
Assets: 8 AMX-Roland
- Belgian Army Aviation Group
Manpower: 150
Assets: 11 A-109A
- Luxembourg Regiment
Manpower: 800
- 1st Belgian Horse Rifles Regiment (Recon)
Manpower: 100
Assets: 6 Scimitar
- 2nd/4th Belgian Horse Rifles Regiment (Recon)
Manpower: 200 cavalry
- Belgian Immediate Reaction Regiment (Paratroopers)
Manpower: 400
- 1st ‘Chasseur Ardenais’ Regiment (Elite Infantry similar to mountain troops)
Manpower: 400
- 3rd RHC
Manpower: 950
Assets: 10 SA-342, 5 Tigre PAH-2, 4 AS-332
- 2nd Logistic Brigade
Manpower: 1400
- 1st Belgian Mechanized Brigade
Manpower: 1350
Assets: 10 Leopard 1, AIFV, M109A2
- 7th Belgian Mechanized Brigade (Flemish)
Manpower: 1400
Assets: 8 Leopard 1, AIFV, M109A2
- 2nd DB (Bruxelles)
Manpower: 3200
Assets: 16 Leclerc, AMX-10, VAB, AUF-1 GCT, MLRS
- 6th DBL (Antwerp)
Manpower: 4400
Assets: 36 AMX-10RC, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 10th DB (Nijmegen)
Manpower: 4000
Assets: 20 AMX-30 Brenus, VAB, AUF-1 GCT
- 1st Belgian Territorial DI (Liege/Verviers)
Manpower: 4000
- 8th DI (Amien)
Manpower: 2800
- 16th Belgian Territorial DI (Oostende/Ghent, Flemish)
Manpower: 4600
Force d’Action Rapide (FAR/Rapid dployment force/Middle East)
- 1st REC (UAE)
Manpower: 600
Assets: 24 AMX-10RC
- 1st REI (UAE)
Manpower: 600
- 2nd REI (Oman, VAB)
Manpower: 600
- 2nd REP (UAE, VAB)
Manpower: 350
- 5th RHC (Oman)
Manpower: 950
Assets: 9 SA-342, 7 Tigre PAH-2, 7 AS-332
- 9th DIMa (Oman)
Manpower: 1300
Assets: 13 AMX-10RC, Bv-206, VAB, 155FH
- Division Daguet (UAE)
Manpower: 4500
Assets: 12 AMX-30 Brenus, 15 AMX-10RC, VAB, AUF-1 GCT,
4 SA-342, 6 Tigre PAH-2

Gendarmerie
GIGN (Groupe d’Intervention de la Gendarmerie National)
Manpower : 85
GBGM (Groupement Blindé de Gendarmerie Mobile/Armored Group)
- 1st Group
Manpower : 520
Assets : 21 AML-90, 15 VBRG
- 2nd Group
Manpower : 560
Assets : 9 AML-90, 29 VBRG
Gendarmerie Mobile (Mobile Gendarmery, equipped with 4x4 and trucks)
- 39 Mobile Squadron
Manpower: 120
Gendarmerie Départementale (Local Gendarmery, equipped with civilian vehicles)
- 104 Groupements de Gendarmerie (91 in France, 9 in Belgium, 2 Corse, 1 Luxembourg, 1 Saarland)
Manpower: 500
Gendarmerie d’Outre-mer (Overseas Gendarmery)
- Groupement de Guadeloupe (a type of unit )
Manpower : 600
Assets : 2 AS-355, 3 VBRG
- Groupement de Martinique
Manpower : 600
Assets : 1 AS-355, 2 AML-90, 3 VBRG
- Groupement de La Réunion
Manpower : 600
Assets : 1 AS-355, 2 AML-90, 3 VBRG
- Groupement de Nouvelle Calédonie
Manpower : 800
Assets : 2 AS-355, 2 AML-90, 3 VBRG
- Groupement de Guyane
Manpower : 800
Assets : 1 AS-355, 2 AML-90, 3 VBRG
Republican Guard
- Cavalry Regiment
Manpower: 350 cavalry
- 1st Infantry Regiment
Manpower: 900
- 2nd Infantry Regiment
Manpower: 1300

Force Aérienne
CoFAST (Commandement des Forces Aériennes Stratégiques et Tactiques)
BA102, Dijon
- ESDA 8/950 : 4 GDF-35, 3 Crotale, 2 Radar
- EC 1/2 ‘Cigognes’ : 9 Mirage 2000C
- EE 2/2 ‘Côte d’Or’ : 8 Mirage 2000C
BA103, Cambrai
- ESDA 9/950 : 2 GDF-35, 2 Crotale, 1 Radar
- EC 1/12 ‘Cambresi’ : 12 Mirage 2000C
- EC 2/12 ‘Picardie’ : 10 Mirage 2000C
BA105, Evreux
- ESDA 11/950 : 4 GDF-35, 4 Crotale, 2 Radar
- ET 1/64 ‘Béarn’ : 6 C-160
- ET 2/64 ‘Anjou’ : 5 C-160
- ET 2/61 ‘Franche-Comté’: 15 C-130
- ET 3/61 ‘Poitou’: 11 C-160
BA110, Creil-Senlis
- ESDA 4/950 ‘Servance’: 3 GDF-35, 3 Crotale, 1 Radar
- ET 1/62 ‘Vercors’: 2 CN-235, 4 C-212
- EH 3/67 ‘Parisis’: 3 AS-355, 2 AS-332
- GAM 56 : 3 A-320, 5 EMB-121
BA112 Reims
- ESDA 3/950 ‘Lure’ : 4 GDF-35, 1 Crotale, 1 Radar
- EC 1/30’Normandie-Niemen’ 12 Rafale C
- EC 2/30 ‘Valois’ 10 Rafale C
- EC 1/33 ‘Belfort’: 12 Mirage F-1C
- EC 2/33 ‘Savoie’: 12 Mirage F-1C
BA113, Saint-Dizier
- ESDA 5/950’Barrois’ : 4 GDF-35, 4 Crotale, 2 Radar
- EC 1/7 ‘Provence’: 10 Rafale C
- EC 2/7 ‘Argonne’ : 10 Rafale C
BA118, Mont-de-Marsan
- ESDA 1/950’Vaccares’ : 3 GDF-35, 2 Crotale, 1 Radar
- EC 1/11 ‘Roussillon’ : 6 Mirage 2000N
- EC 2/11 ‘Vosges’ : 12 Mirage 2000D
BA120, Cazaux
- ESDA 13/950 : 4 Mistral
- ETO 1/8 ‘Saintonge’: 12 Alpha Jet, 5 TB-30B
- ETO 2/8 ‘Nice’: 13 Alpha Jet, 5 TB-30B
- EH 1/67 ‘Pyrénées’: 2 AS-355, 4 AS-332
BA125, Istres
- ESDA 10/950 ‘Monfort’ : 2 GDF-35, 2 Crotale, 1 Radar
- GRV 1/93 ‘Nantes’: 4 KC-135FR
- EC 3/4 ‘Limousin’: 8 Mirage 2000N
- EH 5/67 ‘Alpilles’: 2 AS-355, 1 AS-332
BA126, Solenzara
- ESDA 14/950 : 3 Mistral
- EH 6/67 ‘Solenzara’: 2 AS-355, 2 AS-332
BA133, Nancy
- ESDA 6/950 ‘Riquewihr’ : 2 GDF-35, 1 Crotale, 1 Radar
- EC 1/3 ‘Navarre’: 11 Mirage 2000D
- EC 2/3 ‘Champagne’: 14 Mirage 2000D
BA701, Salon de Porvence
- ESDA 12/950 : 4 Mistral
- EPAA 300: 4 Alpha Jet, 15 TB-30B
BA702, Avord
- ESDA 2/950 ‘Sancerre’ : 2 GDF-35, 1 Crotale, 1 Radar
- EDCA 36 ‘Berry’ : 2 E-3F
BA 000 Florennes (Belgium)
- ESDA 7/950 : 5 GDF-35, 1 Crotale, 1 Radar
- 1ère Escadrille ‘Chardon’ : 6 F-16
- 31e Escadrille ‘Tigre’ : 8 F-16
- 40e Escadrille : 2 Alouette III, 3 Sea King
Commandement Océan Indien
- ETOM 50 ‘Réunion’ (La Réunion) : 2 AS-332, 2 CN-235
Commandement Moyent Orient (Oman)
- EC 2/5 ‘Île de France’: 12 Mirage 2000C
- EC 2/4 ‘La Fayette’: 14 Mirage 2000N
- ET 1/61 ‘Tourraine’ : 6 C-160
- GRV 2/93 ‘Rennes’ : 2 KC-135FR
Commandement Mer Rouge (Djibouti)
- EC 4/33 ‘Vexin’ (Djibouti) : 5 Mirage 2000C
- ETOM 88 ‘Larzac’ (Djibouti): 2 AS-332, 1 C-160
Commandement Afrique (Gabon)
- EC 3/30 ‘Lorraine’ : 10 Mirage F-1C
- ETM 1/40 ‘Moselle’: 2 TB-30B, 3 AS-355
- ETOM 55 ‘Houessan’ : 2 AS-355, 2 AS-332, 1 C-160
Commandement Pacifique (Nouvelle Calédonie)
- ETOM 52 “La Tontouta” : 1 AS-355, 2 AS-332, 2 CN-235
Commandement Antilles
- EHOM 68 ‘Guyane’ (Guyane) : 1 AS-355, 3 AS-332
- ETOM 58 ‘Antilles’ (Martinique) : 2 AS-332, 2 CN-235

Marine Nationale
Pacific Naval Group
- F731 Prairial and F734 Vendémiaire (1 Alouette III)
- L9032 Dumont d’Urville and L9033 Jacques Cartier
- P686 La Glorieuse, P688 La Moqueuse, and P691 La Tapageuse
- Flotille 25F: 2 EMB-121
Mediterranean Naval Group (Marseille)
- Flotille 21F (Nimes): 5 Br-1151 Atlantic
- R91 Charles De Gaulle (13 Rafale M, 12 Super Etendard, 2 E-2C, 2 Lynx)
- D616 Forbin (1 SA-365)
- D615 Jean Bart (1 SA-365)
- F710 Lafayette and F714 Guepratte (1 SA-365)
- P677 Cormoran and P683 La Boudeuse
- M641 Eridan and M644 Pegase
- A631 Sommes
- S601 Rubis
Indian Ocean Naval Group (Djibouti/La Réunion)
- R97 Jeanne d’Arc (2 Alouette III, 3 SA-321G)
- D612 De Grasse (2 Lynx)
- F730 Floréal (1 SA-365)
- F910 Wielingen
- P902 Libération
- A607 Meuse
- S606 Perle
Atlantic Naval Group (Martinique)
- D641 Dupleix (1 Lynx)
- D642 Montcalm (1 Lynx)
- F735 Germinal (1 Alouette III)
- P682 L’Audacieuse
- M645 Orion
- A608 Var
Naval Assault Group
- D603 Duquesne
- F789 LV Le Henaff and F797 Cmdt Bouan
- L9012 Siroco (2 Lynx, 1 SA-365) and L9031 Francis Garnier

Last edited by Mohoender; 09-14-2008 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:57 AM
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I did not adjust the maximum file settings for attachments so Mohoender was forced to put the data in the post above. I have included the attachment in this post.


For future reference the maximum size for images is 100k and 800x600. Text files (xls, doc, pdf and such) is 500k. If this is abused I may reduce it, but I think these will be ok.

PS Nice work.

PPS Look at that i Hit my 4 min service goal again
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File Type: doc FRENCH OOB.doc (77.5 KB, 162 views)

Last edited by kato13; 09-14-2008 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
I will change the max attachment size to 500k I guess.

I will attach the document in 5 min or so.
I'll apreciate it and post it again then (100k is enough so)
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:21 PM
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********************

thefusilier 09-14-2008, 12:08 PM Your armour strengths seem a little low for what I expected. As they didn't get involved in any real serious combat, I'd figure them to be much stronger. Your thoughts?

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Old 09-14-2008, 12:38 PM
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A better post then

Thanks Kato
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
********************

thefusilier 09-14-2008, 12:08 PM Your armour strengths seem a little low for what I expected. As they didn't get involved in any real serious combat, I'd figure them to be much stronger. Your thoughts?

********************
I agree but I stick to the cannon for that one (so the french to get a Napoleon IV). Actually, you could double them and may be replace the leopard 1 (belgium) by AMX-30 brenus (or AMX-30B2) phased out of french regular units

Last edited by Mohoender; 09-14-2008 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:43 AM
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Brit 09-16-2008, 01:10 AM I've just been off for a couple of weeks so if I missed it... apologies... but what's a 'Napoleon IV'? I figure it's a 'new' French MBT but any details welcome. Thanks.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:43 AM
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This is really good stuff, Mohoender..thanks for posting...

Just one question springs to mind...what sort of units would you forsee making up the French force in Quebec?

As to how Marseille survived, how about the missile intended for there missed its target by some distance...or malunctioned en route (and hit somewhere else hundreds of kilometres away!)?
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six
This is really good stuff, Mohoender..thanks for posting...

Just one question springs to mind...what sort of units would you forsee making up the French force in Quebec?

As to how Marseille survived, how about the missile intended for there missed its target by some distance...or malunctioned en route (and hit somewhere else hundreds of kilometres away!)?
The French force in Quebec would more or less be, I think, a kind of volunteer force with troops drawn essentialy from other units. A kind of Rag Tag unit, almost mercenary.

About Marseille, that's why I came up with Toulon being blown up. Marseille is the biggest oil terminal on the French Mediterranean Sea Coast. I can see more than one reason for that miss.

One solution comes from the fact that Toulon is only 30 miles away from Marseille (less in strait line). I can easily imagine that city being targeted in place of Marseille (the situation is confused). Even more so as it is the place where the french mediterranean fleet is located.

Another solution might come from the French Air Force. If the attack on Marseille was made by plane that one can be intercepted. Then it might be destroyed or drop the bomb on Toulon in order to help its escape.

I like these ideas but you can make it a simple malfunction if you prefer (I just find that a malfunction on Marseille and Quebec is way too much luck on the French side).

Some other points, then:
- A major refinery is located at Lyon and that one might not have been targeted as well.
- The French are getting oil from the region east of Paris and that survived too (no point of targetting it as the area is too broad).
- Paris escape as it has no strategic target outside the government, and you don't care about destroying a neutral government when you already have much work in progress.
- The french might retain some space capability as Kourou (French Guyana) survived and is still held. Ariane 5 wouldn't be an issue anymore but Ariane 4 might still be in use for satellite launches.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:56 PM
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Thinking some more about Soviet nuclear strikes on France..

Firstly, I confess that I have no clue what canon says about France specifically...I do recall that there is mention of non belligerent nations being attacked (wasn't there specific mention of Venezuela?)

However, France would be the only non belligerent nation that would have the ability to rspond in kind if attacked with nuclear weapons.

What I'm suggesting, therefore, is whether it would be likely that the Soviets would not attack France, in the knowledge that a direct attack would invite French nuclear retaliation and possibly French entry in to the War on the side of NATO? Which would mean that not only would Marseille survive unscathed, but so would Toulon and the other places mentioned?

Alternatively, if you want to stick with France being attacked, perhaps Marseille survives as a result of negotiation between the French and the Soviets to stop attacking each other before Marseille is targetted?

Either way, I agree with Paris not being attacked. Quite apart from anything else, belligerent nations might find it useful to have a major neutral capital intact should they ever want to sit down and negotiate an end to the War.

Like your thoughts on the French force in Quebec...would obviously make it much easier for the French Government to plausibly deny interfering in Canadian domestic issues if only volunteer formations are present...same prinicple as the USA Eagle Squadrons in the 1940 Royal Air Force or the Flying Tigers in China.

Interesting points on France...surely a much mentioned but rarely studied aspect of T2K...
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:28 PM
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Mohoender 09-16-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:
I've just been off for a couple of weeks so if I missed it... apologies... but what's a 'Napoleon IV'? I figure it's a 'new' French MBT but any details welcome. Thanks.

Sorry, it's just one thing which is due to the world situation in twilight. If the French get to strong (with the union corse being quite powerful) they will be capable of conquering Europe again with a new emperor in Paris.


As I understood it from the cannon, France still has a fair population to draw on, if you give them too much tanks they'll stop at moscow again. Don't forget that it still has an air force and some avgas. Therefore, the figure are low but don't make them too big. Bonaparte's familly is still around


Actually I made a mistake and wanted to write that they would not get one again

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Old 09-17-2008, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Six
Thinking some more about Soviet nuclear strikes on France..

Firstly, I confess that I have no clue what canon says about France specifically...I do recall that there is mention of non belligerent nations being attacked (wasn't there specific mention of Venezuela?)

However, France would be the only non belligerent nation that would have the ability to rspond in kind if attacked with nuclear weapons.
The canon didn't say much in fact and V2.0 is more than poor.

Actually, I don't think that the nukes hiting Frnace would come from Russia. Instead, I would see more of an attack from NATO. First, France betrayed them somehow. Second, when things go sour they might want to prevent France from supplying the Warsaw Pact. Third, that might explain why the attack on Marseille missed or was never carried out. Fourth, it gives one more reason for France to invade NATO Territory in Germany and Netherlands.

Nuking of Anvers and Brussel would certainly be from the Warsaw Pact, however.

With this scenario, French nuclear retaliation is unlikely but they might decide to sink NATO shipping in the Mediterranean and disrupt it in the Atlantic. They might well meet with success and if they don't I can't understand how they can maintain several troops abroad. Then, they will certainly use tactical nuclear devices when pushing to the Rhine (Pluton missiles and air dropped).

About Venezuela there is nothing, but Hugo Chavez failed with a coup attempt in 1991 (IRL). That would certainly be successful in the case of Twilight and you can imagine Venezuela becoming a member of the Warsaw Pact. Moreover, if you follow the V1.0, Nicaragua is still sandinista and might also think about joining with Warsaw Pact. That could explain why Mexico was capable of invading US as it would get help from other countries. A Venezuelian attack on Colombia is possible too as would be a Nicaraguian drive to the Panama Canal (In my game these happen only after U.S. troops entered Mexico but both attacks fail).

About Mexico, I put it the other way around with Americans fleeing into Mexico and U.S. troops crossing the Rio Grande to protect them. Really, I don't see why Mexicans (lightly touched by the nukes in the Tampico region) would flee to a country that was heavily bombed (U.S.). That is, at best, a stupid move

In the South America, I can see only one country remaining organized and that is Chile. Bolivia might attack Chile in the north but that would be crushed and Bolivia would get into anarchy or become insular. Ecuador and Paraguay would fell to the economic turmoil. Peru is mostly in anarchy because of Sendoro Luminoso. Uruguay would be crushed during the War between Argentina and Brazil. Drug cartels and guerilla will do most of the damage, then (as per canon).
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:26 AM
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thefusilier 09-17-2008, 02:21 AM Well don't count them out as weak. In the GDW game 2300AD (which is based on the Twilight2000 war) the Third French Empire is a dominant group. Myself and I few others here regard this as canon material. Even if you don't it makes sense.


They were spared a heavy nuclear attack and its military is intact. They have forces controlling mid east oil and the means to transport it. IMO, France is incredibly strong and influential.

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Old 09-17-2008, 02:44 AM
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Targan 09-17-2008, 02:39 AM
Quote:
Myself and I few others here regard this as canon material.
I am one of those people. In case you or anyone else is interested I actually have a document containing the rules the GDW developers used in their "Great Game" to play through the 300 years after the Twilight War and determine the back history for Traveller:2300.
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:25 AM
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thefusilier 09-17-2008, 05:19 AM Does it give info on the Saudi Wars (or similarly named), Texas war of independance, and other post-war conflicts? If so, very interested.

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Old 09-17-2008, 07:47 AM
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I'll add this as I did on RPGhost

I don't count them as weak but as I'm not playing the 300+ year after. I don't have that in mind. Anyway, in that case, it does make sense to have some more. Keep in mind, however, that France doesn't have that much of armor (at most 1000 AFVs+400 AMX-10RC) and that it has to overcome some difficulties. As a result, most of its military production (in 2000) would be used to keep the existing supply in working order.

If France retains control on limited oil, it also has limited means to get it from the Middle East as our commercial fleet is really reduced. I agree that it is incredibly powerful (by T2K standards) and it can recover faster than the rest of the world but not that fast. It has lost part of its military forces, nevertheless.

According to canon, most of the nukes fell on the coastal regions (and on the oil producing centers) and that would probably include Strasbourg (German border) as much of the northern region (Calais, Lille...). So, sorry for the canon but that cannot leave its military intact. Consequently, France will lose several air bases, a fair part of its ground forces (probably about 20%) and part of its navy (the ships not at see when the nukes start to fall). Actually, with what is said, it looses the Charles de Gaulle (under construction) and cannot build the Richelieu as its major Dockyard (St Nazaire and Brest) would be destroyed. That one is not obvious as Brest and Lorient might not be targeted (They are not major oil terminal). If they are, the Mediterranean dockyards will need work before being up to that kind of work.

It certainly has electricity but this is probably limited as I cannot imagine all nuclear power plants to be working. Many will be under repair but I think 2 or 3 are held in reserve at all time (escaping the EMP as a result).

In my world France retains an important foothold in Africa with at least Senegal, Gabon and Cameroon (Ivory Coast would have been evacuated). By the way Cameroon and Gabon are more reliable to get oil from. Sending troops in the Middle East makes sense (in a long term view), but when you need this supply fast, you take the shortest supply line. Canon never spoke of it but I don't think the Suez Canal to be open.

Morocco and Tunisia would certainly have survived also and ally with France. We have special connections with them (IRL) and both have little chance to get nukes as they don't hold Gas and Oil (unlike Algeria and Libya). However, they have valuable resources that can represent an important asset to France. In addition, France would have reopen several domestic mines recently closed for economic reasons (among them Bauxite, Coal and Iron). it also gets the industrial region of Belgium intact and expect the Saarland to be cooperative (as in the 1920's).

I agree that it has all that it needs to become a super power but if you give it too much, it will become one by 2005 (in T2K of course).

Nevertheless, France can fairly quickly become a major power: it retains a fair population (about 50 million people for mainland France and Belgium alone), it has a working industry and can get a full supply of electricity back quickly, it has access to oil (and other valuable ressources), it can use a good part of the wine business to produce ethanol for the civilians, it gets involved in Quebec, retains troops in Africa, has a base in Djibouti, controls New Caledonia (major nickel mines), retains control over parts of the Carribean with a working space agency at Kourou (useful to build a satellite network or keep yours working), might have close ties with Morocco and Tunisia, can build some with Switzerland, I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy, Portugal and Spain become ally rapidly (after all, Sarkozy is curently trying to build a Mediterranean Union), Israel needs a new ally and might turn to France also, France has a working (if slightly reduced) navy as well as some merchant vessels, it can quickly rebuild some kind of world trade... Indeed it is a major player.

A question so, if going to the Middle East, why not land with the FAR in UAE and Oman? (easier and makes more sense).

Last edited by Mohoender; 09-17-2008 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:58 AM
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Just a small add.

I made a dream: A world dominated by France Good luck guys
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
So, sorry for the canon but that cannot leave its military intact. Consequently, France will lose several air bases, a fair part of its ground forces (probably about 20%) and part of its navy (the ships not at sea when the nukes start to fall).
I guess I disagree amount the extent of the damage. France was hit the lightest... there never was an intention to remove France entirely from the map. Marseille simply may not have been targeted.

The French Air Force for example, are surely going to deploy to dispersal fields once the nukes start flying (well before the neutral nations are targeted). If France is hit with a very limited nuclear strike so I can't see many air units getting vaporized.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:02 PM
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boogiedowndonovan 09-17-2008, 01:57 PM I just did a quick lookover while at work. definitely better than what the T2k sourcebooks have.


I was not one who agreed with T2k canon said regarding Belgium, considering that over half the country is Flemish, so I like your take on the Belgians (7th Mech and 16th Division go to the Dutch). Kind of off topic, but do you know if the Belgian Paracommando Regiment split it's component battalions into Flemish or Walloon units? Also did the Belgian Air Force and Navy also have Flemish and Walloon units?



Back on topic, where do you have the fusilers marins, commandos marines and the 13e RDP?

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TiggerCCW UK 09-17-2008, 04:13 PM Belgian para commandos - definitely someone I'd like to have on my side! They used to come over to Otterburn training area every year at the same time as we did our field assesment for the Marine cadets. We actually got to do OpFor for them one year. Really impressive unit, worked well in the field.

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Old 09-18-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier
I guess I disagree amount the extent of the damage. France was hit the lightest... there never was an intention to remove France entirely from the map. Marseille simply may not have been targeted.

The French Air Force for example, are surely going to deploy to dispersal fields once the nukes start flying (well before the neutral nations are targeted). If France is hit with a very limited nuclear strike so I can't see many air units getting vaporized.
I talked about air bases, not about units. As the bases are their, they are vaporised.

Why not for Marseille but then you don't deny France oil to whatever side you want.

Actually I could expect the French to launch a major offensive in Germany after the going home event. They would have had time to build up their military and you can expect to have a 2 million troops army rushing for it.

As I said, I'm not sure France naval base would have been hit.

Then if it's really the lightest, France would have send various missiles back to whoever targeted it. Several late nuclear attack would have been from France as I hardly sea the French nuclear arsenal to quitely sit while civilians get fried up. Anyway if that was the case, they have more than enough to make everyone else keep quite while they conquer Holland, Germany and Poland. France had about 500 nuclear warheads and that's more than enough to make your point in T2K after 2001 (using missiles on the Warsaw Pact, airplanes on Europe and subs on US).

Last edited by Mohoender; 09-18-2008 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
Anyway if that was the case, they have more than enough to make everyone else keep quite while they conquer Holland, Germany and Poland.
One question.Why would they want to do that?

I understand French troops occupying parts of Holland and Germany to secure a barrier against refugees. But what would be the benefit in then trying to overrun the rest of Germany and Poland? A land grab? Is it really worth grabbing?

Sorry, mon ami, mais je ne comprends pas...unless you're referring to your earlier post about creating a dream World dominated by France?

Personally I think that going by canon France has already become a Superpower in the T2K World, possibly the only real Superpower.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Personally I think that going by canon France has already become a Superpower in the T2K World, possibly the only real Superpower.[/QUOTE]

I agree to that. but there are a few reason for France pushing it.

First France might certainly not remain a democracy and you'll have to get the French occupied. Anyway, in such time if the government just sit there you can expect the French to go for another revolution.

Then, you have some ressources to get from southern Germany. You won't have to worry about much opposing Forces and about ethnic cleanic (it's done)

Also, that would be a fun idea (and probably a politicaly appealing one) to recreate some kind of Carloman Empire. French have some drawbacks and if you tell them that you will create an European Empire with France at the center, trust me, they'll go for it. When French get miserable, they go to war (at least you get something to eat and some grandeur to dream of. How do you think Bonaparte made them move?). Look also at the French national heroes: Louis XIV (a war monger that banckrupted France) and Napoleon I (a butcher that conquered Europe, killing probably 2 million people in the process and one the Russians are simply calling "Tyran")

Poland might be too much (I was just getting carried out) but there is a reason for it, nevertheless, Poniatowski (heir to the Throne of the Warsaw duchy) is French.

Finally, the country has the troops to do it and the ones to secure the conquered lands and it's open for the taking (Spain, however, bring back bad memories and Italy is too much of a mess).

Actually, as there is no more world economy, its collapse won't have much consequences after some times.

Seriously, I see France developping itself in Africa and the Carribean but more with a kind of state union. I would imagine that to happen in Europe as well. That might be the best reason and France might move in simply to make that happen, using troops to bring security more than to conquer. The conquest would be more of a political one.

One last thing, if France retains a navy, don't expect HMG to retain the working offshore platforms for long (just in memory of Joan of Arc). France would quickly have 5 or 6 carrier to rely on (Foch, Clemenceau, C. de Gaulle, Richelieu, PA-75 project and another one as I recall). + plans for serious landing ships already made.

Therefore, I agree that France was lightly touched but not to the point of remaining intact! Don't forget that it retains all of its major cities as well as all its industry and electricity can be put back in no time. If you don't target at least a bit of its military, you are doomed.

About moving troops and units around, I think France to be taken by surprise and I think it retains the nukes for a given purpose (make her point is a good one)

Last edited by Mohoender; 09-18-2008 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:08 PM
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Mohoender 09-18-2008, 10:27 AM
Quote:
I just did a quick lookover while at work. definitely better than what the T2k sourcebooks have.


I was not one who agreed with T2k canon said regarding Belgium, considering that over half the country is Flemish, so I like your take on the Belgians (7th Mech and 16th Division go to the Dutch). Kind of off topic, but do you know if the Belgian Paracommando Regiment split it's component battalions into Flemish or Walloon units? Also did the Belgian Air Force and Navy also have Flemish and Walloon units?



Back on topic, where do you have the fusilers marins, commandos marines and the 13e RDP?

Yes they do but I don't know exactly which unit is felmish and which is wallon (french speaking). That, by the way explain why only few air force units came to France (many are flemish speakers) and that is certainly more true fro the navy (all harbours are on the north sea coast after all and that is entirely flemish)

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Mohoender 09-18-2008, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Belgian para commandos - definitely someone I'd like to have on my side! They used to come over to Otterburn training area every year at the same time as we did our field assesment for the Marine cadets. We actually got to do OpFor for them one year. Really impressive unit, worked well in the field.

I think it will split but I don't know to whom advantage. It has strong ties with the french foreign legion but it is strongly entitled to NATO I think. Belgium units are based at Salon de Provence and Solenzara


Actually you can be sure that the "chasseurs Ardenais" go to France and you can expect the Red devils to go to France (then Africa) and US/UK. Nevertheless, I don't think Belgian will fight americans as there is too much respect on the Belgian part.

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Old 09-18-2008, 12:39 PM
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Just a small add

In the last post from kato it should read "I don't think Belgian will fight americans as there is too much respect on the Belgian part".

Thanks again kato
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks again kato
NP fixed in the original as well.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
Seriously, I see France developping itself in Africa and the Carribean but more with a kind of state union. I would imagine that to happen in Europe as well. That might be the best reason and France might move in simply to make that happen, using troops to bring security more than to conquer. The conquest would be more of a political one.
I agree with that 100%. And personally, I prefer the game play options that a political expansion / conquest offers.

In my work on the UK I have the French goal being to prevent the UK becoming a threat to French power without open warfare between the UK and France.

To do so I have an independent Scotland becoming a member of the Franco Belgian Union, thus splitting the UK and allowing the French a foothold in the British Isles, whilst DGSE Agents would be carrying out clandestine operations in England to ensure that HMG remains unstable.

One area that has been making me think has been the presence of French troops on Scottish soil, so I like your earlier idea about the troops overseas being a volunteer force.
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Old 09-20-2008, 02:29 AM
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Targan 09-20-2008, 01:15 AM For anyone who is interested here is a reasonably exhaustive timeline for the 300 years after the Twilight War according to GDW.

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Old 10-15-2008, 03:31 PM
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Interesting orbat! I think TW 2000 France is a good setting for some more "civilized" gaming environments, certainly it deserves some thought regarding it??s impact on the world setting.

France would be in a good position to attempt to take control over a lot of oil and gas production areas in Libya and Algeria, especially with Tunisian or Moroccan backing, considering the sheer number and land areas the facilities are spread over it is likely significant portions survived whatever secondary nuclear and conventional assets that were deployed their way during the height of the war. With their strong local naval and air projection capability they should have little trouble securing some invaluable assets in North Africa, further strengthening their strategic position.

I??m currently tinkering with a small campaign focused on a joint Foreign legion and Chadian strike on southern Libya coinciding with a air/amphibious attack with some tactical nukes on the shore areas, interesting area for some exotic desert hijinks and not entirely plausible I think. The main problem would be logistics I believe, getting the oil to the sea and back to France, though I??m not up to date about french merchant tonnage, particulary tankers, and what might reasonably have survived the nuclear devastation and naval warfare of the period.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:44 PM
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Welcome aboard POW902.

Glad people are using the archives of older posts.
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