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  #31  
Old 01-17-2010, 10:33 PM
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France & Poland is very much a natural alliance. Any country that can be used to divert the Germans is an ally for whoever is a neighbor of Germany, it seems.
I can very easily see French influence appearing early on in Poland's recovery from the Twilight War.

Last night, I went looking at Going Home again. I saw about 10 centers for Poland to start organizing around. Up north, the American-Canadian enclave is very near several Polish units that have left the Pact in favor of the Polish Free Congress in Pila-- whatever that is. The PFC sounds like a pro-NATO, or at least anti-Soviet organization, I suspect CIA/DIA backing for it. Since there is nothing in the OMEGA OpOrder that implied it was pro-US, I wonder if it's instead supported by the French? Pila's one of the biggest un-destroyed cities around, too.
Major clusters of Soviets remaining, at least through the 2000-01 winter: around Lodz, Poznan, Torun, Lublin and western Silesia. I wonder if the Russified civilian population of Kalinigrad should count, too.
In addition to Krakow and Silesia, there is also an independent Polish group around Gdynia, the Warsaw militias, and the Black Baron between Bialystok and Warsaw. {Of course, we all know what happens to him!}

So, I rather like the Etranger summary-- several small forces coalesce into fewer groups, and eventually the two biggest ones fight it out, until the French step in and help them end it. Much like Germany, except the French work hard to make sure they stay divided.
My only quibble might be that the British might want to try to gain influence with one or another faction, as well. I guess they lost that one to the French. The Swedes and eastern German successor states might like to have friends there, too.

For a game, I'd like to get into a spy-like game using White Eagle, there's just so much to work with in there. If a ref could really play King Julian, that would be fantastic, he is a central figure to the region, given his power, ambition and personality. While knocking him off would be a task, setting things up so that the region doesn't lose the organization he stamped on it and fall further into anarchy is the bigger job. I could see a group of PCs working for any number of outside intel. agencies getting into that. Or mercenaries who couldn't be entirely sure about who they are working for at all!
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  #32  
Old 01-17-2010, 11:35 PM
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Prompted by your post, Admiral, I too took another look at Going Home. There is certainly a lot to work with there.

I'm tentatively planning on mapping out all of the units listed as being on Polish soil in Going Home, as well as a key indicated each unit's "loyalty" status. When it's done, I'll make sure to post it here.

I'm in favor of the idea of French meddling... er... "involvement" in post-war Poland, although "post-war" may be a bit of a misnomer. I wonder if Twilight War would be an appropriate title since, by 2000, WWIII would have entered into a new lower-intensity phase, but one which nevertheless promises much more fighting to come.

The Poland of the winter of 2000-2001 is indeed a Balkanized mess and byzantine intrigues no doubt will abound there for some time.

My question is how could/would the French get their agents, supplies, covert-action teams, diplomats, etc. to Poland in late 2000 and thereafter? Crossing Germany by land and/or would be dangerous and provocative to say the least. By boat would be hazardous as well (mines, pirates, the last few vessels of the NATO and Soviet navies). A southern route from the Med would be long and perilous as well.

I see northern Poland as being the best option for the seat of a new Polish state because of the many Polish army units in that region. However, one would have to somehow tie them all back together and give them a unified purpose. This could make for an intriguing T2K campaign focussing on diplomacy.
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  #33  
Old 01-18-2010, 04:51 AM
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I wonder if Twilight War would be an appropriate.
I believe the 2300 continuation of the Twilight2000 timeline refers to the period from 2002 to many years on as the 'Contrail War'. Just another option.
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  #34  
Old 01-18-2010, 10:13 AM
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Prompted by your post, Admiral, I too took another look at Going Home. There is certainly a lot to work with there.

I'm tentatively planning on mapping out all of the units listed as being on Polish soil in Going Home, as well as a key indicated each unit's "loyalty" status. When it's done, I'll make sure to post it here.

My question is how could/would the French get their agents, supplies, covert-action teams, diplomats, etc. to Poland in late 2000 and thereafter? Crossing Germany by land and/or would be dangerous and provocative to say the least. By boat would be hazardous as well (mines, pirates, the last few vessels of the NATO and Soviet navies). A southern route from the Med would be long and perilous as well.

I see northern Poland as being the best option for the seat of a new Polish state because of the many Polish army units in that region. However, one would have to somehow tie them all back together and give them a unified purpose. This could make for an intriguing T2K campaign focussing on diplomacy.
I could see the French using their mostly-intact merchant marine and navy to insert their agents and aid across the Baltic. I think they should be able to suppress or scare off any pirates without a sweat. {If they really wanted to, I suspect they could airlift stuff-- how are the Germans going to stop them?} If the Danes and Swedes object to French ships transiting their straits, the French have carrots & sticks to use-- technical assistance with rebuilding or naval threats. Sweden should still have its population, army and navy, but I can't see them wanting to pick a fight with the last European power.
Were I the Danes, and the French came through and offered to help rebuild & repair power stations and shipping, I'd take 'em up on it.
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  #35  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:47 PM
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Polish Free Congress in Pila-- whatever that is. The PFC sounds like a pro-NATO, or at least anti-Soviet organization, I suspect CIA/DIA backing for it.
I think this is in some form of the Polish Government in Exile that moved from London to physically inside Poland during the war. It is pro-NATO with help from largely the DIA.

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Since there is nothing in the OMEGA OpOrder that implied it was pro-US, I wonder if it's instead supported by the French? Pila's one of the biggest un-destroyed cities around, too.
French weren't getting involved directly in Poland. They had agents there, I think I recall one operating in Krakow, but for a large part they were observers who would hire guns if they believe they could keep the French from appearing take one side over the other. The City of Pila size is one of the many reasons why Polish Free Congress has set up shop there.

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Major clusters of Soviets remaining, at least through the 2000-01 winter: around Lodz, Poznan, Torun, Lublin and western Silesia. I wonder if the Russified civilian population of Kalinigrad should count, too.
I think many of these locations the Soviet units would stay put to reinforce the local militia or attempt to head home themselves. Many in the Soviet senior officers have had enough of the war. The few units who would want to continue the war would be in the minority by this point. Even the basic grunt knows that the enemy is 10 feet tall and is in as bad shape or worse than they are currently. As for Kalinigrad, this town is up for grabs, I can see where poles would try to claim it, or the Germans.

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In addition to Krakow and Silesia, there is also an independent Polish group around Gdynia, the Warsaw militias, and the Black Baron between Bialystok and Warsaw. {Of course, we all know what happens to him!}
These are the areas where the remains of the Soviet KGB and GRU, along with intelligence services from every other country including Isreal. I wrote somewhere else it was the French agent in Krakow, but now I suddenly remember her being Isreal agent. All of these places will have agents from all over Europe trying to move these pockets in hope of them gaining full control of Poland and future ally.
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  #36  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:09 PM
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Abbott: I think you are remembering the Israeli agent in Krakow. I can't recall any French operatives in any module. What I am proposing is that French agents should be slipping in soon after the OMEGA evacuation. At the very least, they should be trying to find out what is going on there. Ditto for the Germans, really.
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Old 01-19-2010, 02:45 PM
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At the risk of getting us OT, the Black Death of the mid-14th century was no "simple" disease. Most modern scholars believe it was actually two diseases, Bubonic Plague and, later, the much more deadly Pneumonic Plague. Some people have postulated that it was actually neither but instead a hemoragic fever of some sort, much like Ebola.

Furthermore, medieval folks had no idea what caused it, maving prevention and treatment alomst impossible.
didnt it pop its head up a few years back with a few isolated cases in Asia somewhere ? I was led to belive that the diesease still lives on in vermin in Central Asia.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:55 PM
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didnt it pop its head up a few years back with a few isolated cases in Asia somewhere ? I was led to belive that the diesease still lives on in vermin in Central Asia.
That's true, and it does periodically still pop up in southeast Asia. Some 200 US troops contracted bubonic plague during the Vietnam War before some numbskull at the Petagon finally figured out that we need to be vaccinating our troops against the Plague. Some 20 Americans every year get the plague every year because they let their cats run around outside, then come in the house -- Kitty's outside hunting, catches rats that have the fleas carrying plague, and then bring the fleas into their owners' houses. Think about all the stray kitties that little kids will pick up after the Twilight War...
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:55 PM
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didnt it pop its head up a few years back with a few isolated cases in Asia somewhere ? I was led to belive that the diesease still lives on in vermin in Central Asia.
It still pops up all over the world from time to time. A park ranger at the Grand Canyon in northern Arizona died from bubonic plague a couple of years ago. He apparently caught it from a dead mountain lion.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:01 PM
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Back on topic, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

The U.S. XI Corps controls a good chunk of NW Poland. Not far from this enclave is the town of Pila, listed as the seat of the "Polish Free Congress". This PFC controls a couple of Polish military units, including a fairly powerful MRD.

AKAIK, the PFC is not described in detail anywhere. Due to its physical proximity to XI Corps' redoubt, I think its fairly safe to assume that a cooperative relationship between the two entities (i.e. that it is pro-western/anti-Soviet).

Did I miss something. Do any of you know of any canonical references to this PFC?
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:09 PM
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Back OT, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.
I did this very exercise about a week or two ago on paper, at least as far as they'd gotten by October - November. I'll email it to you when I get a chance.
Most units are shown to be in almost the same locations as at 01JUL00. Taking it a bit further, those units mentioned in the Return series are shown to have moved very little - no more than about 100km.
By November I would think most units not already in cantonments would be looking around seriously for somewhere to shelter over winter. Any move would likely have to wait until spring 2001.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:20 PM
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I did this very exercise about a week or two ago on paper, at least as far as they'd gotten by October - November. I'll email it to you when I get a chance.
Most units are shown to be in almost the same locations as at 01JUL00. Taking it a bit further, those units mentioned in the Return series are shown to have moved very little - no more than about 100km.
By November I would think most units not already in cantonments would be looking around seriously for somewhere to shelter over winter. Any move would likely have to wait until spring 2001.
True, regarding unit locations. My map will also include unit "loyalty" info as well. What has changed by winter 2000 is that many units are either no longer accepting orders from higher HQ or are still loyal but unwilling to take offensive action. A few seem to have hunkered down with plans to become a particular locality's permanent militia.

This info will be helpful in charting out how Poland might look further on down the line.
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:39 PM
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My focus has been on charting unit loyalties and strengths leading up to summer of 2000. If I can track that and their positions, I can judge what Pact commanders might have thought about the possible offensive options available to them and come up with a plan that might actually have worked (if Nato hadn't jumped first).
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:41 PM
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My focus has been on charting unit loyalties and strengths leading up to summer of 2000. If I can track that and their positions, I can judge what Pact commanders might have thought about the possible offensive options available to them and come up with a plan that might actually have worked (if Nato hadn't jumped first).
Cool. My focus is more on Poland after the bulk of the NATO forces pull out.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:55 PM
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Abbott: I think you are remembering the Israeli agent in Krakow. I can't recall any French operatives in any module. What I am proposing is that French agents should be slipping in soon after the OMEGA evacuation. At the very least, they should be trying to find out what is going on there. Ditto for the Germans, really.
Yeah I realized that after I had written it bit.
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  #46  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:11 PM
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Back on topic, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

The U.S. XI Corps controls a good chunk of NW Poland. Not far from this enclave is the town of Pila, listed as the seat of the "Polish Free Congress". This PFC controls a couple of Polish military units, including a fairly powerful MRD.

AKAIK, the PFC is not described in detail anywhere. Due to its physical proximity to XI Corps' redoubt, I think its fairly safe to assume that a cooperative relationship between the two entities (i.e. that it is pro-western/anti-Soviet).

Did I miss something. Do any of you know of any canonical references to this PFC?
The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:36 PM
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So basically the PFC is little more than a Nato propaganda tool, or puppet at best....
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  #48  
Old 01-20-2010, 07:44 AM
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The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

Wikipedia has a page on the Polish Government in Exile. Must confess that whilst I was aware it had existed during WW2, I'd no idea it carried on after the end of the War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile

Sounds like it was a fairly low key organisation even during the Cold War...

On another matter, anyone given any thought to what influence the Pope might play? IRL John Paul II didn't die until 2005, so may still be alive in the T2K timeline - I've always liked the idea of him being offered sanctuary in either France or Switzerland.

I'd have thought that having the support of John Paul II would be a huge boost for any faction in Poland. Even those who don't have any support (such as King Julian) might claim that they did have the Pope's backing as a way to increase their popularity.

Presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to produce forged letters, get a tame Priest, dress him in Cardinal's robes and produce him to the people, where he says that he has come from wherever the Pope happens to be with a message from the Holy Father recognising Julian (or whoever) as the legitimate ruler of Poland...
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  #49  
Old 01-20-2010, 11:52 AM
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Default Pope John Paul II

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:37 PM
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Perhaps the Pope spoke out actively against Poland's involvement in the USSR's war against China or supported Polish exiles after the war began in Europe. Perhaps the Soviet government pressed newly allied Italy to turn the Polish pope over or perhaps the church hierarchy feared a KGB or GRU assassination plot, either aided or abetted by the Italian government. Perhaps the KGB approached some cardinals who wanted to depose the Pope and install someone more to their liking and promised to help get him out of the way. Either way, the Pope and his aides decided it would be safer to move their operations to neutral Switzerland.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:45 PM
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Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could their "abandonment" have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:58 PM
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WWIII is a mess.

It's a conflict involving far more than just two sides. For example, just because Italy is fighting Nato doesn't mean they're allied to the Soviets and in fact I wouldn't be suprised if Pact forces and the Italians were put into the same room, there'd be bloodshed (or at least harsh words).

This is one of the issues facing Nato when they chose to run the Greek blockade and deliver badly needed supplies to Turkey in 97. Suddenly the war in central Europe was on two fronts against two seperate and essentially unassociated enemies.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:42 PM
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Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.
Don't forget his health -- by (IRL) 2000, John Paul IIs Parkinson's Syndrome was quite advanced, though being hidden as much as possible by his colleagues. There could actually be a return to the Europe of days past, when armed conflict broke out over who was or would be Pope, and more than one person claiming to be Pope, each with their own screaming, gun-waving followers.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:39 PM
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I'm working on my operational map for Poland during the winter of 2000-2001 again and I thought I'd resurrect this thread instead of starting another.

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Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA? I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies? Could their "abandonment" have been a political move?

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.
Going Home states that "The XI Corps was cut off from higher headquarters after the Pact counteroffensive of July, and has remained in its positions out of necessity rather than by choice. It has been written off by USAEUR. The XI US Corps HQ staff is currently wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland, along with the remnants of the 50th US AD. As of the beginning of the adventure, word of the evacuation has just arrived. Most of the Corps' personnel will decide to remain in place rather than risk the journey to Bremerhaven." (Going Home, p. 14)

This suggests that powerful Pact forces stand between XI Corps and Bremerhaven prior to and during Operation Omega. However, no Pact forces in Going Home or any other canonical source list any Pact forces in that area. It's a straight shot from Kolobrzeg west into Germany, with absolutely no enemy forces standing in the way.

What gives? Where and what is the ghost PACT army that's standing in the way of XI Corps and Bremerhaven? Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation?

I have a slightly non-canonical explanation (see the embedded post quote above) but I'm wondering what if ya'll can come up with another plausible explanation.
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Last edited by Raellus; 01-19-2011 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:53 PM
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The German III Corps offensive, specifically what happened to XI Corps is one of my pet projects.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354 has a long and detailed discussion.

Quote:
The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain – the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.
My comments reposted above are about the most logical explaination I've been able to come up with - terrain is the main enemy although some Pact presence in the form of patrols (in addition to the lack of necessary equipment and materials) prohibits XI Corp from trying to rebuild crossing points.
Individuals and small units (up to say plattoon size) can be transfered back and forth by sea, but to evacuate the Corps would require many months and the abandonment of all heavy equipment (anything that can't be manhandled onto a small boat).

Travel by land would require a unit to push south as far as Berlin (perhaps even beyond) and almost certainly into contact with hostile forces. XI Corp also doesn't have the fuel, nor ammunition required to mount any sort of serious offensive action to clear their path.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post

Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation?


One current trend in discourse around these parts would point to the Corps HQ being staffed with an overabundance of brass, the majority of whom of course could not be reasonably expected to find their own assholes with both hands and a flashlight.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:52 AM
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I really believe it was all due to the timing of things. Remember it was already late June maybe even July when this went to hell for the XI Corps. Given it location in Poland, and being that they were no longer in contact with NATO lines. Maybe the higher commands realized that the XI Corps had other more pressing issues. Like securing food and shelter for the troops until plan to extract them could be developed and acted upon.

The NATO had been caught completely by surprise how fast the the Soviets were able to move the 22nd Cavalry and 4th Guards Tank Armies. At this time when they were closing in on the 5th Mechanized Division it was only then that the XI Corps Commander faced a hard chose. The 5th was too far south and out on it own. The 8th had equally went out on it own. As the Third German Army and III German Corps started to pull back. The Corps commander was left with hard choice. If he withdrew it would mean 3/4 of his command would be either destroyed or isolated.

If he broke contract with the III German Corps and consolidated the remains of his Corps and hope bits and pieces of the 5th and 8th would make their way back to the Corps. At about this time from NATO Supreme Commander on down to at least Corps level HQs realized the 4th Guards Tanks Army, may have been for something else. The 22nd Cavalry Army well it could be debated either way if they were part of the planned offensive or if they meant to do other operations.

What many Divisional and Corps/Army Commanders had already knew on both sides was any extensive Offensive would led to units effective fighting themselves into non-existence. For NATO the break down wasn't as complete, but with the lot of the Fourth US Army deciding to stay put to help the Germans. While other units had decided to stay in parts of Germany for other reasons.

On the Pact side you see several Front HQ and Army HQ ceasing to exist as they were absorbed into Division. Those that still existed had very few units still responding to them. The exception were units in Austria that really didn't get into the fighting during the Spring/Summer, and those few units of the 4th Soviet Guard Tank Army. Many of the Soviet Divisional Commanders if not higher HQ Commanders were already making plans to go home come in 2001. Much like the US Army, Europe and the UK Army of the Rhine had decide after the 2000 Offensive. They realize continuing the war just because no one was willing to give the order to quit.

For the Soviet Divisional Commanders it was hard decision. Either they can withdraw and lose control of their combat force as bits and pieces split off to do their own thing. Or stay put and try to rebuild where ever they were and use what they could do to help rebuild in their locality as part of new emerging governments.

I see the US XI Corps Commander has to worry about moving heavy equipment and once they got back to NATO lines, how would they NATO Command fit the units. At best his unit would be push to some area that wasn't prepared for the Corps. Worse his command would be split up, since he lost 2 Division.

Either way if he made it back to NATO lines he would lose his job, even if events happen so fast that everything was out of his control when it was realized the Soviet were mounting a major counter-offensive. So I think it was the fact he was looking to save what was left of his combat forces. He knew that if he stay where he was he could get the Corps organized and set up for the coming winter. If he did it correctly and not alienate the local Polish population he may be able to keep things together and working with them improve everyone situation.

Many of the Polish units that had declared for the Polish Free Congress had only done so after the fighting had settled down. Those that had remain loyal to the Pact probably had done so due to the closeness of Soviet commands, yet again many of the Soviet commands were crumbling too. Even a Division of the 22nd Cavalry Army had defected en-mass during the counter-offensive.

By July 2000 almost everyone realize that fighting the old war was pointless. They all had started to think about either rebuilding where they were or making their way home. The only place where the fighting was still going on limited was the Middle East. Even there it still small affair of raids. The Third Army wasn't in no shape to push the Soviet Armies out of Iran. By the same token the Soviet Front in Iran line of communication threatened at best due to various mutinies along their supply line knew their was very little they could do. They were in the same position of the US XI Corps. It was better to consolidate and hope for improvement.
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
France and Poland have history that the Poles remember as being good for Poland, this may motivate them to initiate and/or accept talks with France especially with France playing no part in NATO operations.
Damn. You totally beat me to the punch Cynic. Now all I can do is pretend to be smart by commenting on your smartness.

Nice catch about the Polish National Anthem mentioning Napoleon. That's news to me.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sglancy12 View Post
Damn. You totally beat me to the punch Cynic. Now all I can do is pretend to be smart by commenting on your smartness.

Nice catch about the Polish National Anthem mentioning Napoleon. That's news to me.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing
Thank you for the compliment
Basically I'm a trivia whore I like accumulating all those random bits and pieces of information and while I can't usually give specific details like exact dates and so on, I remember enough info to use it as a 'head start' into the topic (particularly useful as a quick leap for doing a web search) or to see some of the links from the various smaller things into the 'big picture'.
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:21 PM
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In addition to being cut off by terrain and (potential) Pact forces, I'll stick to my opinion that the XI US Corps leadership is influenced by the Polish Free Congress representatives that are with them. The PFC is still trying to win over nearby Polish forces, despite their failure to do much before the offensive. In addition, the "loss of contact" implies to me that after the III German Corps broke contact, the Americans lost faith in their higher-ups. If we further assume some kind of communications breakdown (loss of radios or codes or whatever), then they are truly out of contact.

Where they are, the remainder of XI Corps can try to make the best of a bad situation. Every other NATO unit that's tried to leave their position (5th Mech, 8th Mech, even III Corps) has been driven back or swallowed up by the Pact forces all around. I can certainly see why they want to hunker down for the foreseeable future.
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