Out of Mothballs: Antiquated Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Interesting to note that a lot of weapon systems were still in service or buried in some forgotten corner of some warehouse someplace. Examples -
1) Some friends cleaning out a warehouse found a crate of unissued Springfield Model 1884 rifled muskets in 1996.
2) T-34/85s could still be found in Russian training units and Machine Gun Divisions in the Far East in 1990.
3) Approximately 50 M60A2s were still in US POMCUS warehouses in 1990 as well as un-updated M60A1s.
4) MG34 and MG42 machineguns were in East German police and militia armories at reunification.
5) French police still have German G43s rifles in armories.
6) Norway still has MP40s SMGs in its militia armories.
7) German STG44s were captured in Iraq in 2003.
8) Up till about 1994, there were still M1 Carbines maintained in US armories.
9) Many US police agencies still possess M1928 Thompsons in their armories.

Thanks, MPipes. Those are exactly the kinds of things I'm hoping to catalogue here.

Re #7, according to Wikipedia...

"The Sturmgewehr remained in use with the East German Nationale Volksarmee with the designation MPi.44 until it was eventually replaced with domestic variants of the AK-47 assault rifle. The Volkspolizei used it until approximately 1962 when it was replaced by the PPSh-41. It was still used by other public security formations thereafter.[24] The ammunition was manufactured there at least until 1961.[24] Other countries to use the StG 44 after World War II included Czechoslovakia (although it was not officially adopted)[24] and Yugoslavia, where units such as the 63rd Paratroop Battalion were equipped with it until the 1980s,[25] when the rifles were ultimately transferred to Territorial Defense reserves or sold to friendly regimes in the Middle East and Africa. France adopted captured StG 44 for colonial Foreign Legion units."

And, apparently, it is still produced today in Germany as a sporting rifle, both in the original caliber and in .22 rimfire.

So, one could expect to find examples of the StG 44 scattered about during the Twilight War.

In addition to previous examples, Romanian Patriotic Guard troops were equipped with MG-34s until at least the 1970s.

I also reckon that one would frequently encounter PPSh-41s and PPS-43 SMGs in East Bloc militia/irregular/deep reserve units come 2000.

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[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I also reckon that one would frequently encounter PPSh-41s and PPS-43 SMGs in East Bloc militia/irregular/deep reserve units come 2000.

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Both the PPSh-41 and PPS were used at the start of the current Ukrainian unpleasantness, so they would definitely still be around in any of the existing Twilight War timelines. They might also appear in Africa and East Asia, based on the users and former users listed on Wikipedia.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind this is current data on the T-34 tank as of 2020

Current
Cuba: 642 supplier - undisclosed number in service.
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 5
Republic of the Congo: In reserve.
Guinea: 30 still operational
Guinea-Bissau: 10
Namibia: 4 (in reserve)
North Korea: 650 - undisclosed number in service
Yemen: 30 operational
Vietnam: 45 in service as a trainer

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind this is current data on the T-34 tank as of 2020

Current
Cuba: 642 supplier - undisclosed number in service.
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 5
Republic of the Congo: In reserve.
Guinea: 30 still operational
Guinea-Bissau: 10
Namibia: 4 (in reserve)
North Korea: 650 - undisclosed number in service
Yemen: 30 operational
Vietnam: 45 in service as a trainer

It's much more likely for small arms to be available from bygone eras than artillery, armor, etc. It's just way too costly to maintain a fleet of reserve tanks or ships or airplanes. A rifle is easy - coat in grease, wrap in oilskin, and pack away.

The Boneyard in AZ or the reserve fleet in Philly are examples of wishful thinking, for example - to maintain hardware, you either have to spend the time and effort to maintain it ready-to-go (in which case why bother if you have a front-line set of kit but no guard or reserve troops to use and maintain the old kit) or you have to do so much layup to prepare it for long term storage that it'll take months (or longer) to make it serviceable.

I think that is the key - in order to have antiquated weaponry that isn't a true museum display piece that can actually be used, having reservists or guardsmen type troops to continue using it is necessary.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

It's much more likely for small arms to be available from bygone eras than artillery, armor, etc. It's just way too costly to maintain a fleet of reserve tanks or ships or airplanes. A rifle is easy - coat in grease, wrap in oilskin, and pack away.

The Boneyard in AZ or the reserve fleet in Philly are examples of wishful thinking, for example - to maintain hardware, you either have to spend the time and effort to maintain it ready-to-go (in which case why bother if you have a front-line set of kit but no guard or reserve troops to use and maintain the old kit) or you have to do so much layup to prepare it for long term storage that it'll take months (or longer) to make it serviceable.

Oh the rifles and other small arms will be in great profusion - the armor/artillery/armored cars etc. are more to show, as per Raellus question, what kind of obsolescent vehicles will be seen in the T2K timeline.

I.e. what might get pulled out of reserve, etc.. and find itself fighting on the battlefields as modern armor gets short

I recommend an excellent book you might like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te...aeli_War:_1999 - very relevant to the topic - shows the US having to use old Lee, Sherman and Stuart tanks when the modern armor they had broke down

And I disagree with you on maintaining hardware - many of the older tanks are still in operation precisely because they are so easy to maintain. That guy in my town who owned the Sherman kept it going with a backyard garage and tools he bought from Sears and spare parts that in some cases he improvised from old service manuals he had.

Compared to the marvels of modern tech we operate now they may still be going long after the Twilight War ends due to their simplicity and still be fighting on battlefields when the last M1A1 has finally broken down for the last time.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh the rifles and other small arms will be in great profusion - the armor/artillery/armored cars etc. are more to show, as per Raellus question, what kind of obsolescent vehicles will be seen in the T2K timeline.

I.e. what might get pulled out of reserve, etc.. and find itself fighting on the battlefields as modern armor gets short

I recommend an excellent book you might like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te...aeli_War:_1999 - very relevant to the topic - shows the US having to use old Lee, Sherman and Stuart tanks when the modern armor they had broke down

And I disagree with you on maintaining hardware - many of the older tanks are still in operation precisely because they are so easy to maintain. That guy in my town who owned the Sherman kept it going with a backyard garage and tools he bought from Sears and spare parts that in some cases he improvised from old service manuals he had.

Compared to the marvels of modern tech we operate now they may still be going long after the Twilight War ends due to their simplicity and still be fighting on battlefields when the last M1A1 has finally broken down for the last time.

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

[mpipes]

Forgot to mention that the Soviets stored THOUSANDS of captured German weapons at least through the 1990s. A friend was shown one salt mine in the Ukraine in the mid 90s storing WWII captured weapons. He personally saw and inspected crates of Lugers, P38s, G43s, K98s, MP-40s, and MG34s and 42s. All of them were in extremely good condition and fully functional. The Russians also had all the Thompson SMGs received with their lend lease Sherman tanks in storage, and many of those parts kits after the receivers were demilled were imported in the 90s and early 00s.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

In a number of the militaries of less wealthy countries, a soldier's time is cheaper than new vehicles and there aren't sufficient threats to justify spending large sums of money on the latest shiny toys. There are M8 Greyhounds still serving in multiple Latin American forces, while the last M4 Sherman tanks were retired in 2018 and Paraguay might still have some M3 Stuarts in service (Uruguay retired theirs in 1999). As far as I know, M3 half-tracks are still in service in Mexico. About 15 years newer but still "obsolete," there are hundreds of M60 tanks still in service, to the point that Raytheon and Leonardo have both introduced SLEP packages within the last 5 years, while Taiwan implemented an Elbit SLEP in 2019. There's plenty of old stuff either still trucking along in active service with second (or third, or fourth) users or in reserve to be recalled if there's a big enough war to need fast expansion of a military.