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  #91  
Old 01-20-2013, 05:12 AM
James Langham James Langham is offline
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Personally I think the Irish armed forces would be crazy taking on Britain in any circumstances as their forces are inferior in almost every category. There would be die hard Republican elements even within the armed forces who probably would attack the north before actually thinking of the consequences. Northern Ireland's paramilitary security forces alone are probably equal in strenghth to the Irish armed forces, and the Northern Protestant mentality has been preparing for a "Catholic" invasion since the 19th century.

However British forces could take out any military or civil target in Southern Ireland without to much trouble, and I would agree with you that the chances of a British nuclear strike on Ireland is as low as a strike on Washington DC.
IRL there was a plan to launch a rapid attack if things deteriorated in the north (unfortunately I don't have the source handy). It was considered in 1969 before Op Banner started.

In TW2000 there isn't a British Army presence as such as it has been withdrawn. In its place is the UDR which is rolled and trained for internal security duties.

It is not unrealistic to think that they could decide it was possible and achievable, particularly if Catholic repression in the north made it politically expedient.
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  #92  
Old 01-20-2013, 07:21 AM
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Personally I think the Irish armed forces would be crazy taking on Britain in any circumstances as their forces are inferior in almost every category. There would be die hard Republican elements even within the armed forces who probably would attack the north before actually thinking of the consequences. Northern Ireland's paramilitary security forces alone are probably equal in strenghth to the Irish armed forces, and the Northern Protestant mentality has been preparing for a "Catholic" invasion since the 19th century.
I've always agreed with that point of view, which is one of the reasons my original work has always not had an invasion of the North by the Republic. However recently I've come round to the way of thinking that it is part of the T2K canon so whilst we may find it implausible I think I made an error in not including it in my Alternative version of the SGUK (I think someone mentioned a number of equally implausible events in another thread recently).

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IRL there was a plan to launch a rapid attack if things deteriorated in the north (unfortunately I don't have the source handy). It was considered in 1969 before Op Banner started.

In TW2000 there isn't a British Army presence as such as it has been withdrawn. In its place is the UDR which is rolled and trained for internal security duties.

It is not unrealistic to think that they could decide it was possible and achievable, particularly if Catholic repression in the north made it politically expedient.
I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

I agree that if stories / rumours start circulating in the south about alleged massacres taking place in the north that could act as a catalyst to send the Irish Army over the border. I don't think it would even need to come in the shape of an official order from Dublin - all it might take to spark it off is for one Irish Battalion CO to decide to take action and it could rapidly spiral out of control, particularly since HMG at the time is virtually decapitated (whether you use canon timeline or mine). The Irish Government may be horrified at what they've started but even if they wanted to try and bring things back under control there's no one for them to talk to in the UK. And, initially, at least the Irish make good inroads into the North, so even if the Irish Government (I'm gonna start calling that EIRGOV for short!) didn't intend to start a War they may not want to stop when they see how it progresses in the opening months at least.
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  #93  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:04 AM
James Langham James Langham is offline
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I've always agreed with that point of view, which is one of the reasons my original work has always not had an invasion of the North by the Republic. However recently I've come round to the way of thinking that it is part of the T2K canon so whilst we may find it implausible I think I made an error in not including it in my Alternative version of the SGUK (I think someone mentioned a number of equally implausible events in another thread recently).



I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

I agree that if stories / rumours start circulating in the south about alleged massacres taking place in the north that could act as a catalyst to send the Irish Army over the border. I don't think it would even need to come in the shape of an official order from Dublin - all it might take to spark it off is for one Irish Battalion CO to decide to take action and it could rapidly spiral out of control, particularly since HMG at the time is virtually decapitated (whether you use canon timeline or mine). The Irish Government may be horrified at what they've started but even if they wanted to try and bring things back under control there's no one for them to talk to in the UK. And, initially, at least the Irish make good inroads into the North, so even if the Irish Government (I'm gonna start calling that EIRGOV for short!) didn't intend to start a War they may not want to stop when they see how it progresses in the opening months at least.
Add an unmarked border and intentional or unintentional navigation errors on either side...

I actually quite like the idea of a war that happens by accident !
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  #94  
Old 01-20-2013, 12:47 PM
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I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon
I always like looking at all the contingency plans drawn up to take control of Ireland during a major war, particulary the German and British plans during WW2. Shows the relative value of Ireland to to others due to its geography.

An Irish newspaper recently posted online that the oil terminal at Bantry was a likely target for a Soviet nuclear strike during the Cold War. Recent Irish State Papers were made available to the public entitled ďStrategic Importance of Ireland to the UK in Times of WarĒ sets out the likely role of Ireland in the event of a global nuclear war.

The document drawn up by the Irish intelligence services says that Ireland was under direct threat of nuclear attack with likely targets including the Whiddy oil terminal in Bantry Bay and Shannon Airport. The report also said that Ireland would be likely to assist the UK in the event of a nuclear war with up to 500,000 people available for military service as well as offering sites for missiles, more than 30 airstrips, oil supplies and access to dozens of ports and harbours. Ireland was also identified as a likely staging post for reinforcements from the USA.

During the Cold War Ireland refused to join NATO because Northern Ireland was still a part of the United Kingdom. But Ireland did offer to set up a separate alliance with the USA but this was refused and it was linked in part to the $133 million received from the Marshall Aid Plan. It was also revealed recently that the Irish government started secret transmission of information with the CIA in 1955 from the Irish embassy in London. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Irish government authorized searches of Soviet aircraft that stopped over at Shannon Airport en route between Warsaw Pact countries and Cuba.

Sort of shows which side the Irish are really on.
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  #95  
Old 01-20-2013, 01:15 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
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From the Belfast Telegraph.

A Soviet war map shows that Northern Ireland was also targeted for nuclear attack during the Cold War, and these targets were pinpointed in 1980 by British defence experts showing the spots they thought were likely to be hit.

Likely targets were the city of Belfast and its international airports. The British Army barracks at Ballykelly, the former US naval facility at Lishally, St Angelo airfield near Enniskillen and the US Navy transmitters in the Sperrin mountains. In British maps RAF facilities in Bishopscourt and Downpatrick were open to attack, along with British Army transmission sities in Co. Antrim and Derry, the British Army military communications facilities in Omaha, and a sea strike at Inishtrahull off the Donegal coast was also predicted. The Soviet were likely to use the SS-4 or SS-11 naval misille.

Personally I think its overkill and most of it is just speculation.
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  #96  
Old 01-20-2013, 02:52 PM
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From the Belfast Telegraph.

A Soviet war map shows that Northern Ireland was also targeted for nuclear attack during the Cold War, and these targets were pinpointed in 1980 by British defence experts showing the spots they thought were likely to be hit.

Likely targets were the city of Belfast and its international airports. The British Army barracks at Ballykelly, the former US naval facility at Lishally, St Angelo airfield near Enniskillen and the US Navy transmitters in the Sperrin mountains. In British maps RAF facilities in Bishopscourt and Downpatrick were open to attack, along with British Army transmission sities in Co. Antrim and Derry, the British Army military communications facilities in Omaha, and a sea strike at Inishtrahull off the Donegal coast was also predicted. The Soviet were likely to use the SS-4 or SS-11 naval misille.

Personally I think its overkill and most of it is just speculation.
Sounds like a list from a full scale thermonuclear exchange rather than the (relatively speaking) more limited exchange that takes place in T2K.

There's a fairly detailed total exchange type target listing on the sub brit website (although I don't think it goes as far as the Telegraph's one):

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/featur...dices.htm#app5

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  #97  
Old 01-21-2013, 12:41 AM
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I don't think anyone in Britain would be still alive if all those targets were hit.
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  #98  
Old 02-27-2021, 04:15 PM
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Some of you who’ve been around for a while may remember that after being underwhelmed by the official product I attempted to write an Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom which gradually took shape in this thread over a period of time.

For anyone that’s interested, the link below will take you to a complete final draft. Most of it is not new, I’ve simply pulled together all of the different sections that have appeared here into one document for convenience, although there are a few sections that have never been shared before, primarily parts one and ten, while i’ve made a few tweaks to other material here and there (some of the Northern Ireland stuff might be new, I honestly can’t remember, this has literally been sitting on the hard drive of not my last laptop but the one before that for years, but inspired by some of the stuff that’s been appeared lately I thought I’d dust it off and post a link to it here in its entirety).

Comments, questions etc are welcome, although I should stress that I’ve been done with this project for a while and don’t intend to make any changes / revisions - it’s offered as it is, typos and occasional bits of wonky formatting et al, do with it as you will. Some readers may note a few British pop culture references dotted about and some of the photographs are used in what is intended to be a humorous way - I hope readers will take those in the spirit in which they’re intended.

Also, lest there be any doubt, it’s entirely unofficial and entirely non canonical (although it does largely comply with the V1 timeline other than a few non critical details, e.g. William as King). To be clear, I absolutely, categorically do not seek or claim any canonical status for it (including the so called ‘fan canon’ which I’ve never bought into anyway).

A number of people on this forum helped with ideas, suggestions, encouragement etc during the lengthy writing process. Specific shout outs go to Sean Nolan, aka RN7, who wrote parts of the Scotland and Wales sections, LouieD, whose help with Orbats was invaluable and who was responsible for the idea of the rebadging of some Territorial Army units, James Langham, who contributed to the section on the Dutch, and DudeUK, who was basically responsible for me restarting the whole project after a lengthy hiatus.

Right, here goes. I hope this link works, if it doesn’t I’m sure someone will let me know…

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8k40p08k0...Draft.pdf?dl=0
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  #99  
Old 02-27-2021, 05:57 PM
wolffhound79 wolffhound79 is offline
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was the uss america in the wrong spot or is there something im missing?
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  #100  
Old 02-27-2021, 08:12 PM
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For anyone thatís interested, the link below will take you to a complete final draft.
Throw it my direction as a word file and I'm happy to go through correcting the typos, formatting, etc...
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  #101  
Old 02-28-2021, 05:21 AM
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was the uss america in the wrong spot or is there something im missing?
If you mean the reference to the USS America on page 89, it's not a reference to any warship. It refers to a Bedford five ton gun truck operating in a shore unit formed from Royal Navy sailors who don't have any ships to man. In true Royal Naval tradition, each of the gun trucks was given a name starting with HMS (His Majesty's Ship). As that particular truck is commanded by a US Navy exchange officer it was given a USS prefix rather than an HMS one. It's definitely not in the wrong place.

The only US warship mentioned is the USS Normandy (and it's not seaworthy).

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Throw it my direction as a word file and I'm happy to go through correcting the typos, formatting, etc...
Cheers Leg, I appreciate the offer, but I'm happy to finally -just call it finished so I figure it's fine as it is (my intent was never to get it published or claim any sort of canonical status for it, it was just something that was done because I enjoyed doing it but it's done now - if I start revisiting it for whatever reason I'll end up wanting to redo whole parts).
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  #102  
Old 03-01-2021, 02:32 AM
wolffhound79 wolffhound79 is offline
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thank you for clarifying that.
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  #103  
Old 03-01-2021, 10:57 AM
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GREAT work!
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  #104  
Old 03-02-2021, 06:54 AM
CraigD6er CraigD6er is offline
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Excellent work Rainbow Six, Thank You for this
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  #105  
Old 03-04-2021, 08:54 PM
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Default UK Continuity of Goverment

I just had this link from a blog forwarded to me from a friend. This blogger who used to be in the MoD during some of this planning. Might be useful to any of the players using this new supplement
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  #106  
Old 03-05-2021, 12:15 AM
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Thats a good read and lots of pictures on the internet.
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  #107  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:18 AM
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unfortunately Marc isnt really open to new versions or corrected versions of things that were originally released for the game - i.e. I offered to redo City of Angels and make it actually make sense (i.e. for instance have the Mexican units actually equipped with the right equipment and not Soviet) and he wasnt interested

However I would love to see a much improved Survivors Guide to the UK issued for the 4th edition (which doesnt fall under the same no redo rule)
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  #108  
Old 03-05-2021, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
If you mean the reference to the USS America on page 89, it's not a reference to any warship. It refers to a Bedford five ton gun truck operating in a shore unit formed from Royal Navy sailors who don't have any ships to man. In true Royal Naval tradition, each of the gun trucks was given a name starting with HMS (His Majesty's Ship). As that particular truck is commanded by a US Navy exchange officer it was given a USS prefix rather than an HMS one. It's definitely not in the wrong place.

The only US warship mentioned is the USS Normandy (and it's not seaworthy).



Cheers Leg, I appreciate the offer, but I'm happy to finally -just call it finished so I figure it's fine as it is (my intent was never to get it published or claim any sort of canonical status for it, it was just something that was done because I enjoyed doing it but it's done now - if I start revisiting it for whatever reason I'll end up wanting to redo whole parts).
Rainbow - would you be ok with having something from your alternate Guide as part of the Fanzine? Considering how many people download them it would be a great way to have your excellent work even more widely available. You could pick what section of it you would like to have there if you are interested.
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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ica-Sourcebook

Assembled, produced and contributed to the 2nd and 3rd issue of the T2000 Fanzine- "You're On Your Own"

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...-2?cPath=21_23

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...o-3?src=newest
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  #109  
Old 03-06-2021, 05:44 AM
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Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed it. @Southernap, thatís an interesting article that you linked to, especially the part about the Caledonian MacBrayne ferries.
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  #110  
Old 03-06-2021, 05:49 AM
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Rainbow - would you be ok with having something from your alternate Guide as part of the Fanzine?
No, I would not be OK with that.
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  #111  
Old 03-06-2021, 09:32 AM
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No, I would not be OK with that.
Ok good to know - always make that offer to authors here - thats how James and Matt's stuff was put in the 2nd and 3rd issues as well as Raellus's article in the 3rd issue
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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ica-Sourcebook

Assembled, produced and contributed to the 2nd and 3rd issue of the T2000 Fanzine- "You're On Your Own"

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...-2?cPath=21_23

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...o-3?src=newest
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  #112  
Old 03-06-2021, 08:56 PM
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Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed it. @Southernap, thatís an interesting article that you linked to, especially the part about the Caledonian MacBrayne ferries.
@Rainbow Six

Not a problem. I got it because we were discussing continuity of government and my friend stumbled upon this while doing some searches on what NATO nations would have done to do continuity of government. I am figured someone here might find some good use for it.
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  #113  
Old 03-17-2021, 07:09 PM
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Let's not forget the most important strategic asset for rebuilding civilization in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...rantine_Centre

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