The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

An 18th-century best that never was is the infamous Puckle Gun...

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

It's likely there were at least three - the prototype and the two purchased by Montagu probably weren't the same guns. Two definitely exist today, as Boughton House and the Palace of Beaulieu each have an original. Boughton and Beaulieu were Montagu estates, so they're probably Montagu's two guns from the West Indies expedition. There are no records of any other sales. The Royal Armouries Museum at Leeds is alleged to have an original, but I can find no such claim by the Museum itself. Buckler's Hard has a replica, and there are other replicas that have been made as well. However, they definitely weren't built in large quantities by Puckle.

[pmulcahy11b]

Eeeeeeventually I'll do a Blackpowder Cannon page, and the Puckle Gun will be moved to there. Just don't hold your breath.

[Vespers War]

Another one that's closer to my main period of interest right now (i.e. the First World War) is the Grand Browning. Development was interrupted by the start of the war, but it's very close to being a slightly smaller M1911 chambered for a 9.65x23mm round, with an 8 round magazine. It's not exactly a scaled down Colt, but both were developed from the same Browning patents and drawings and the major differences are in the details (magazine design, grip retention, different sights, etc). Colt tried a very similar pistol in their 9.8x23mm M1910, which would have essentially the same stats as the Grand Browning.

FN Grand Browning (9.65x23mm)
Wt 1.0 kg, ROF SA, Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 1, Mag 8, Rcl 4, Rng 21

And yes, as usual, there's a Forgotten Weapons episode for that.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have that one on my site, under blackpowder rifles, but I had the impression more were built?

I went back and re-examined your page, and we came up with very different specs (which I think is a good thing, since it gives people different options depending on how they feel about it). I like being able to compare my stats with yours, since trying to understand why they're different and how that affects gameplay (hopefully) makes me better at doing conversions.


We're close on damage (I have it at 7, yours is at 8).

Pen isn't as close (2-Nil vs. 2-3-4), but the World Tamer's Handbook tends to have low penetration for black powder weapons, which is what I'm following. I think part of that is that FF&S assumes hard jacketed bullets at higher tech levels and soft lead in the black powder era, so the bullets tend to deform more on hitting hard targets and not penetrate as well.

Bulk is slightly different (8 vs. 10), but probably not very relevant to a tripod-mounted weapon.

We're very different on range (90 for mine, 157 for yours). I think this is another artifact of me using WTH, since it's pretty short-ranged for black powder smoothbores.

Mass is very different between our write-ups. Working off other writers' write-ups, I guesstimated the total mass of the system at 50 kilos, 40 for the gun and 10 for the tripod, where your total mass is 11.22 kilos. That probably also explains why your SS recoil is much higher than mine (not that either are likely to matter, since both are capable of 1 shot in a round at most). I went heavier because an 11.22 kilo weight is about the same as an M1922 BAR. At that mass, someone will try to shoulder-fire one in a game, which I don't want.

I'm not sure I agree with the ROF 1/2. With 5 second rounds, that only gives 6 shots per minute instead of the 9 the gun was alleged to be capable of. For that one stat I prefer the solution I came up with, giving it one shot per round, a 9 round magazine, and a reload of 3 so that it takes 12 rounds (one minute) for a gunner to shoot the magazine and reload with a new cassette. It's consistent with Puckle's designs, which had various cassettes ranging in size from 6 to 11 shots (and the rebuilt/replica one that Ian looked at a few years ago had 9 shot cassettes).

The cartridge shot is from a report about one of the tests where it fired a round containing 16 musket balls.

The cassette weight is the last thing to touch on. Loaded cassettes should be relatively heavy. At 0.85kg unloaded and 0.92kg loaded, each shot would have to be less than 6 grams (since powder weight also needs to be part of that). A 32mm lead ball is 195 grams (194.6), and 11 of them would mass 2.14 kilograms without powder. Even if they were very undersized and only 30mm, 11 of them would mass 1.76 kilos. A 6 gram lead ball would be roughly 10mm.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I went back and re-examined your page, and we came up with very different specs...

What Tech Level are you working from? Blackpowder weapons I generally use 2-4 (for weapon and ammo) depending upon the historical period being simulated (pre-American Revolution 2, American Revolution-1840s 3, 1840s-post Civil War period 4).

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

What Tech Level are you working from? Blackpowder weapons I generally use 2-4 (for weapon and ammo) depending upon the historical period being simulated (pre-American Revolution 2, American Revolution-1840s 3, 1840s-post Civil War period 4).

I lost the original worksheet, but I think I used TL 3, based on the burst radius I got for the shell and hypothetical shrapnel. TL 2 would only have B:3 for shell instead of the B:4 that I have, and TL 4 shrapnel would be B:10 where I have B:8. Honestly, I'm wondering now if I did it as artillery and then backed into the Pen using muzzle energy and just screwed up the range calculation. Plugging in a 3.2 cm, 28 caliber gun for TL 3, I get 154m short range, which is much closer to your 157 than my 90, and all the damages match my write-up.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I lost the original worksheet, but I think I used TL 3, based on the burst radius I got for the shell and hypothetical shrapnel. TL 2 would only have B:3 for shell instead of the B:4 that I have, and TL 4 shrapnel would be B:10 where I have B:8. Honestly, I'm wondering now if I did it as artillery and then backed into the Pen using muzzle energy and just screwed up the range calculation. Plugging in a 3.2 cm, 28 caliber gun for TL 3, I get 154m short range, which is much closer to your 157 than my 90, and all the damages match my write-up.

That may be; I did it as a rifle. Plus, of course, I have some fudges, like all good GMs do

[cawest]

what about a homemade Hotchkiss 37mm gatling black powered cannon vs. APCs or a something like old moses vs m113. I could see them using darts or shells and not iron balls.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by cawest

what about a homemade Hotchkiss 37mm gatling black powered cannon vs. APCs or a something like old moses vs m113. I could see them using darts or shells and not iron balls.

There is a lot of kinetic energy in a fast moving heavy and solid iron ball. Modern armor isn't really made to deal with that kind of projectiles. And a "well placed" shot on the drive wheels would surely immobilize the vehicle.

Against soft armored targets, the iron ball would definitely do real damage.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by cawest

... something like old moses vs m113...

I just have to ask because the meaning of a word or phrase might be readily apparent in one country and completely meaningless in another, so, what is "old moses"?

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That may be; I did it as a rifle. Plus, of course, I have some fudges, like all good GMs do

I went with artillery because FF&S says the small arms calculations are only intended for calibers of 20mm or smaller, but I probably back-figured the Pen like a small arm because it was intended for anti-personnel use.