Got AvGas?

[HorseSoldier]

I could honestly see a trickle getting out and headed back to Europe and North America -- the situation is bad enough that if the House of Saud balks at being shaken down for oil, for instance, CENTCOM is likely to just find another prince willing to play ball and arrange regime change. Same/same for where the French are parked, whatever voting rights MEFF earns at the table, etc. The region circa 2000 is back to colonialism red in tooth and nail, not pre-TDM diplomacy.

(And by trickle I'm thinking more drums of oil or refine fuel loaded onto surviving generalist shipping. Tankers are probably entirely extinct, or so rare as to hardly matter.)

That said, the trickle I'm talking about would be wholly inadequate even for strictly rationed military use. Even before looking at the issue of distribution issue in the US. "Trickle" might just amount to meaning, for instance, the MilGov cantonment receiving the Op Omega personnel has access to tightly rationed gasoline and diesel for some recovery/security operations, but not even enough sustain a major offensive action against anyone, and none of that rolls any further west than the Virginia tidewater. It might be a little better for, say, the UK, is only because they distances are smaller and the government controlled zone is more contiguous, but still not enough.

[Fusilier]

Just for my own interest, what is the normal "shelf life" of aviation fuel?

[Legbreaker]

It appears not long.

According to one source, a long storage period is anything between 4 and 24 weeks. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...sition&f=false
Another source http://www.chevronglobalaviation.com...ech_review.pdf has this:

Storage Stability Instability of jet fuel during storage is generally not a problem because most fuel is used within weeks or months of its manufacture. Storage stability is an issue for the military, which often stores fuel for emergency use. And it can be an issue at small airports that don’t use a lot of fuel. Jet fuel that has been properly manufactured, stored, and handled should remain stable for at least one year. Jet fuel subjected to longer storage or to improper storage or handling should be tested to be sure it meets all applicable specification requirements before use. Because it is the more reactive fuel components that cause instability, storage stability is influenced by fuel composition. It is also influenced by storage conditions; instability reactions occur faster and to a greater extent at higher ambient temperatures. Antioxidants may be added to fuel to improve its storage stability.

So my guess is with fuel refining effectively stopping dead in November 1997, there's going to be next to no useable pre-war fuel by 2000/2001.

Note that additives are included in modern fuels to increase stability (reflected in the above periods) and are unlikely to be available post nuke.

[Legbreaker]

My job is commerical property management and just a few minutes ago I took on the management of a service station with a 2,200 litre and 14,700 litre capacity underground fuel tanks.
Wading through the paperwork in preparation for entry into my software, I came across test results for these tanks. Apparently a tank is considered acceptable with a "water intrusion threshold" of up to 0.38 litres per hour (that's almost 8 litres per day), and these two tanks at time of testing (passed by the way) had 45mm and 30mm of water in them.

So, the thought is that this water has to be removed from time to time to prevent excessive contamination of the fuel. Imagine how quickly the fuel would spoil if this regular maintenance was not carried out.

[Arrissen]

So where then would there still be some useable supplies of Avgas/Jp4 in 2000/01? Stateside and abroad? I know the Middle-East has been mentioned but who else would have oil production and the required refinery processes in operation (at least to some degree) at this point? And I know it would be commandeered/ reserved for emergency/ special military use but I'm still interested to know where these places would be. And most interested in those locations closest to the Eastern seaboard of the US, but anywhere else in the world is of interest too. Any thoughts? Can anyone provide us with at least a rough list of these places; these sacred places of fly fly juice?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Arrissen

And I know it would be commandeered/ reserved for emergency/ special military use but I'm still interested to know where these places would be. And most interested in those locations closest to the Eastern seaboard of the US, but anywhere else in the world is of interest too. Any thoughts? Can anyone provide us with at least a rough list of these places; these sacred places of fly fly juice?

LOL. I so know why you'd be interested in this.

[Arrissen]

Originally Posted by Targan

LOL. I so know why you'd be interested in this.

Err well yes, there's no harm in asking. I mean sure, my latest character did go to alot of trouble to "acquire" an air assest and stash it when things were going down the toilet...but it's still a good question to ask, just out of interest! I'm keen to see what these good people have to say on the matter.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It appears not long.

According to one source, a long storage period is anything between 4 and 24 weeks. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...sition&f=false
Another source http://www.chevronglobalaviation.com...ech_review.pdf has this:


So my guess is with fuel refining effectively stopping dead in November 1997, there's going to be next to no useable pre-war fuel by 2000/2001.

Note that additives are included in modern fuels to increase stability (reflected in the above periods) and are unlikely to be available post nuke.

That's an interesting little nugget of info.

Thanks for posting it...

[atiff]

Maybe some people with enough smarts can rig something like this by salvaging parts from old refineries?

http://www.rentechinc.com/pdu.php

[Webstral]

A lot of things are possible if the necessary supporting factors are in place. Very early in my research for Thunder Empire I cam e up against the problem that 111th MI Brigade was faced with a host of very challenging obstacles. I got around most of them by having the CG of Fort Huachuca start planning for post-nuke survival in 1995 and letting things unfold from there. The food issue, though, was a tougher nut to crack. Keeping hundreds of thousands of people fed while the local economy made the transition to having most of the working population grow their own food in garden-style plots that didn't exist in November 1997 while learning the basics of companion planting and organic pest management. Stabilizing the local population and food is an ironclad prerequisite for the technical types and engineers to be able to work their creative magic and adapt available resources (including salvage) to their needs. I added in the idea of having Fort Huachuca made into a storage and distribution point for southern Arizona so I could make a large stockpile of food available while 400,000 people made the transition to long-term sustainability. As an added benefit, having Huachuca and Tucson eat the food intended for Phoenix, thus condemning Phoenix to a violent depopuation of biblical proportions, fits with the tragic and ironic nature of Twilight: 2000.

In short, a lot of exciting possibilities exist if we can find a logical basis of support.

Webstral