Airbase Personnel 2000/2001

[kalos72]

So to carry of the other thread, I have some questions about airbases and the units that would stay behind if the operations units were moved overseas or something.

Let's look at Vance AFB, its a training base. Canon has never said that they pulled trainers into Europe so I assume the T-6's or the T-38's are still there, no unit would have been moved out to Europe if the airplanes stayed right?

So it logical to say then that these units were all on the base for most of the war at least? This isnt about whats left or how effective or how many people still live there, just would the unit stay on base?

Units today


14th Operations Group (14 OG)

37th Flying Training Squadron (37 FTS) T-6 Texan II "Bengal Tigers"
41st Flying Training Squadron (41 FTS) T-6 Texan II "Flying Buzzsaws"
43d Flying Training Squadron (43 FTS) T-6 Texan II, T-1 Jayhawk, and T-38 Talon
48th Flying Training Squadron (48 FTS) T-1 Jayhawk "Alley Cats"
49th Fighter Training Squadron (49 FTS)T-38 Talon "Black Knights"
50th Flying Training Squadron (50 FTS) T-38 Talon "Strikn' Snakes
14th Operations Support Squadron (14 OSS)
14th Student Squadron (14 STUS) "Eagles"
14th Mission Support Group (14 MSG)

14th Civil Engineering Squadron (14 CES)
14th Communications Squadron (14 CS)
14th Contracting Squadron (14 CONS)
14th Logistics Readiness Squadron (14 LRS)
14th Security Forces Squadron (14 SFS)
14th Mission Support Squadron (14 MSS)
14th Medical Group (14 MDG)

[Legbreaker]

As replacement aircraft became scarce, and replacement crew even scarcer (you can patch up a machine easier than a person), the instructors, who are often amongst the best the military has, would probably be pulled back to combat service.
Some of the trainers may have been armed and sent to provide ground support against the Mexicans and Soviets, a handful closer to the front in Europe, Korea and the Middle East to provide training there, and the rest maybe mothballed or used as donor aircraft for parts.
With a lack of fuel and little chance of sending reinforcements from the US to the various theatres, it seems somewhat wasteful to keep the units together, especially when you consider inexperienced cadets were pushed into combat.

[kato13]

The unit would only stay on base if that is where it was decided they were most useful. But IMO that is unlikely.

Think about what MILGOVs task list looks like the first week of December 1997. If a unit cannot perform their current mission or if that mission would not yield immediate results, you can be damn sure that someone somewhere could use that manpower.

Air support units might not be redeployed immediately, but three years out is a different story. I can see the unit staying in place to guard somewhat significant fuel reserves initially. But that fuel would soon be tasked to nearby units with greater need. Any remaining aircraft, spares, maintenance equipment, etc would be valuable resources that MILGOV would want to protect, but other tasks in the area with higher priority would pull portions of the unit away.

Keeping the unit on an inactive base represents not only the loss of the manpower of that unit, but also any logistical support that needs to be sent to that unit.

The best of the unit would probably be redeployed with a couple of aircraft to wherever units are still flying as trainers can do low fuel use recon missions. Some might be kept to maintain the local MILGOV commanders personal helicopters and C-12.

If you look at unit conversion for the Iraq conflict, you had all sorts of units converted to quasi infantry simply because that is what the conflict required. You were not fighting masses of tanks so MLRS trained troops were doing street patrols. I think that would be the fate of a majority of the unit you are discussing. Being converted to some type of light infantry or light engineering tasked to riot control and disaster recovery, because those are the greatest needs.

[kalos72]

OK, I get the logical point, but there is no canonical reference to Air Force units being pulled from bases or trainer aircraft being used in combat.

This unit represent 250 aircraft and 1000's of people. If this happened on every base, the ever present lack of military power would be solved in the US and so would alot of the "US is in chaos" type issues since ever location with a AFB would have a significant military force to at very least police the area.

Not to mention the forces left at other military installations...

I can see some pilots, and even a squadron or two perhaps being moved overseas or to Colorado perhaps along with thier support group maybe.

But what units would typical stay behind when its planes get deployed. Think of Iraq...what units would stay behind?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

OK, I get the logical point, but there is no canonical reference to Air Force units being pulled from bases or trainer aircraft being used in combat.

It's sort of implied I'd think. If there were significant forces remaining, they'd probably have been detailed in at least one of the books.

Iraq is a totally different situation. It was essentially a one sided operation and there was not even a real sniff of danger to the homeland. Society rolled on as normal, with most people barely even aware the military had been deployed. Units in Iraq were able to be rotated and troops given leave.

Better to compare T2K US with real world areas such as Somalia today - not perfect by any means, but a far closer comparison than the deployments to Iraq or Afghanistan.

[kato13]

I could see base population drop by as much as 85%. I am looking at units deployed to Iraq and I find cases where an Air Group is deployed and then later expanded to a wing by absorbing additional forces. Iraq for example was the first time a base security unit exceeded 900 personnel since Vietnam. In the twilight war that would need to happen around the world.

The natural place to draw these forces from is safe/secure homeland bases. At least before TDM (wait scratch that the US was still deploying divisions after TDM so maybe logic goes out the window.)

Even with substantial forces remaining in the US that are not mentioned in any of the canon, it would not be enough to keep the US from some very dark times.

The efforts of the US military is a significant reason 48% of the pre war population are alive, but a lot of our infrastructure is lost along with the 52% of the population.

A standard rule of thumb is one enforcement officer can control 10 angry members of the populace (25-50 if on horseback). Until local stability is achieved there are going to be a lot of times the military simply can't muster enough to meet the threshold of control.

Some units will be over run. Canon supports this in the last submarine and armies of the night module.

Some units will disband or even turn marauder when MILGOVs logistical network can no longer support them.

A few units will take serious causalities in the MILGOV/CIVGOV split.

As in every war prior disease will ravage some units.

In my very personal opinion the US was on the canvas for a long 6 count (maybe even saved by the bell). The question is what happens after. If you follow HW a Haymaker simply floors them. I however chose to have the US, battered an bloody, raise their fists and get ready for round 2. A personal choice that I know some don't agree with, but it is a game and the point is to have fun. So that is what I choose.

Originally Posted by Steve Rodgers

I can do this all day.

[kalos72]

I think Iraq is a fair example, there was no threat to the homeland envisioned in this war either, at first. Then the bombs dropped...but at that point would the US still have the means of getting these untrained personnel, for the roles they might server over seas anyway, across a nuke ravaged country and then across the ocean, with no navy left, to become cannon fodder?

And its not like MILGOV has been great at getting things organized back home, how would they organize the round up of 100 bases full of men and equipment and then transport them in 1999+...at some point they are going to say "stay put and secure your location, try to assist local populations as able."

I think the questions here are two fold:
1. What units would TYPICALLY be left to secure a base once its operational units and perhaps their immediate support units were deployed?

2. At what point would the US consider themselves in so much trouble they would even try to collect and command/control these types of units?

[unkated]

Originally Posted by kalos72

OK, I get the logical point, but there is no canonical reference to Air Force units being pulled from bases or trainer aircraft being used in combat.

That is kind of a bogus argument IMHO. There is next to nothing in cannon that mention that there is an air force for any nation.

By the time the game starts in summer 2000, there has not been enough aircraft flying to be called an air force for a while. So they don't bother discussing it.

Don't mistake that for "the air force has left everything in place."

Originally Posted by kalos72

But what units would typical stay behind when its planes get deployed. Think of Iraq...what units would stay behind?

I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

Do recall that in V2, army troops that have no other qualification have the career "Support," but that does not stop them from being PC carrying a rifle in the game.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by unkated

That is kind of a bogus argument IMHO. There is next to nothing in cannon that mention that there is an air force for any nation.

By the time the game starts in summer 2000, there has not been enough aircraft flying to be called an air force for a while. So they don't bother discussing it.

Don't mistake that for "the air force has left everything in place."



I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

Do recall that in V2, army troops that have no other qualification have the career "Support," but that does not stop them from being PC carrying a rifle in the game.

Uncle Ted

Keep in mind that there is still Air Force activity in Iran and Kenya (as per Frank there are active air force units there) and also that even France has had to reduce its aircraft operations a lot - so no one is still running hundreds of planes anywhere

but even a small force of planes is still an air force - the US had only about a half dozen planes in Bataan during the whole siege but they were still able to effectively run missions, recon, etc. - but you are right there really isn't anything left that would qualify as a pre-war Air Force outside of France and Iran (and even in Iran those numbers are puny compared to what were originally there on all sides)

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by unkated

<SNIP>
I think you get a number of base care and feeding people, who become wasted mouths unless you turn them into units that you need.

Aircraft mechanics without aircraft are pointless - but men under military discipline with basic weapons training are called green infantrymen. This is probably one of the sources of the reinforcements or 'rebuilding the division' that are mentioned in cannon.

I have to quibble with this to some extent; mechanics and technicians of any kind are not rifle fodder, they are a resource of skills and experience. Certainly give them weapons and teach them how to survive, but for God's sake don't throw them away.
Ever think these guys can help keep your Maintenance values from becoming a major hold-back in your travels? Or their services may be bartered for food, ammo, whatever the village, town, or city-state may have to offer? And you know there is some warlord military commander somewhere that has a museum piece aircraft that he wants to make into a combat machine.