Stoner Weapon System replacement?

[welsh]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Bobcat- As for a 7.62 or .308 weapon system like the Stoner- honestly, I can see a better argument for that being developed by Morrow than fusion powered cars, but that would require some creativity by the game manager.

Sgt- interesting choices. I agree about your thoughts on ammo and water, and the importance of suppressive fire. If the team could offset ammo weight with reduced weight in gear, would that change your balance?

Playing a more updated game, I agree with you about dropping the Mac-10, HK69, and the M-60. Why not an HK MP5 instead of the Uzi? Interesting choice with the Ultimax-100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100 . ANy thoughts on the HK416? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK416

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by welsh

Thanks for the thoughts.

Sgt- interesting choices. I agree about your thoughts on ammo and water, and the importance of suppressive fire. If the team could offset ammo weight with reduced weight in gear, would that change your balance?

Playing a more updated game, I agree with you about dropping the Mac-10, HK69, and the M-60. Why not an HK MP5 instead of the Uzi? Interesting choice with the Ultimax-100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100 . ANy thoughts on the HK416? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK416

The weight of equipment has been a problem since basic issue was a loincloth and a wooden club.

It is funny, everytime ounces are cut from something to ease the load, then those ounces are transferred to something else.

A player can take a 7.62 NATO rifle and 10 magazines. They just have to pay the encumbrance penalty for a basic load over 20kg.

Personally, I think the encumbrance load should be reflected as a percentage of a persons total body weight. A male athlete weighing 275 would suffer less encumbrance than a male athlete weighing 150.

I like the MP-5, and the HK weapons are prevalent throughout. I prefer the Uzis more compact size and hand meets fist loading that the magazine through the grip affords. The HK roller block action is excellent, I am just not a fan of the "rock to lock" magazine release system.

To me the Uzi meets all the needs of the SMG and fielding only one burdens the supply system less. Issued for drivers, doctors, scientists, and optional for medics.

The HK 416 and has nice capabilities. I just feel it was introduced to late for the Project to have made it something common enough for issue.

[.45cultist]

There is a company that makes an MG upper for the M4/M16, not Atchisson, a newer variant. I'll remember when I log off..... Besides, the Stoner links are unique, like the M85's .50 links. The newer system uses links for the M249 and the SAW used by the KFS. This and it's cantankerous nature are why I dropped the M85 from my games.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

There is a company that makes an MG upper for the M4/M16, not Atchisson, a newer variant. I'll remember when I log off..... Besides, the Stoner links are unique, like the M85's .50 links. The newer system uses links for the M249 and the SAW used by the KFS. This and it's cantankerous nature are why I dropped the M85 from my games.

Are you thinking of the "Shrike" ?

Shrike Machinegun

[.45cultist]

Yes, I think so. I like the KCB-70 bayonet, Eickhorn quit production before I could get another one!

[Project_Sardonicus]

Interesting, most modern post 1970s assault rifles were designed with a squad automatic weapon version as well. And almost universally no one uses it [well the UK uses the saw version of the SA80 as a kind of designated marks man weapon but that's probably because of how expensive it was]

Most nations use the Minimi with a few very similar weapons like the Negev or the Ultimax.

Automatic fire longish range, in a compact package that one man can carry.

But in any kind of combat situation there's been a preference for 7.62 designated marks man rifles and light machine guns in 7.62 of all descriptions. As insurgents with RPGs and Lightmachine guns had a range of advantage.

So the Morrow teams choice of weapons is an interesting. It has to be light, portable and effective. Without allowing a group of angry militia with hunting rifles in 3006 to shoot them to pieces from a distance.

So I guess first of all as of the 1980s all Stoner systems are gone, too heavy and unreliable.

And probably most infantry units, are 2 M4s, one with a grenade launcher one as a DSM, a minimi and a 7.62 DSM rifle.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Interesting, most modern post 1970s assault rifles were designed with a squad automatic weapon version as well. And almost universally no one uses it [well the UK uses the saw version of the SA80 as a kind of designated marks man weapon but that's probably because of how expensive it was]

Most nations use the Minimi with a few very similar weapons like the Negev or the Ultimax.

Automatic fire longish range, in a compact package that one man can carry.

But in any kind of combat situation there's been a preference for 7.62 designated marks man rifles and light machine guns in 7.62 of all descriptions. As insurgents with RPGs and Lightmachine guns had a range of advantage.

So the Morrow teams choice of weapons is an interesting. It has to be light, portable and effective. Without allowing a group of angry militia with hunting rifles in 3006 to shoot them to pieces from a distance.

So I guess first of all as of the 1980s all Stoner systems are gone, too heavy and unreliable.

And probably most infantry units, are 2 M4s, one with a grenade launcher one as a DSM, a minimi and a 7.62 DSM rifle.

"Desert Search" said the M16A2's were purchased as the Stoners ran out.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Interesting, most modern post 1970s assault rifles were designed with a squad automatic weapon version as well. And almost universally no one uses it [well the UK uses the saw version of the SA80 as a kind of designated marks man weapon but that's probably because of how expensive it was]

Most nations use the Minimi with a few very similar weapons like the Negev or the Ultimax.

Automatic fire longish range, in a compact package that one man can carry.

But in any kind of combat situation there's been a preference for 7.62 designated marks man rifles and light machine guns in 7.62 of all descriptions. As insurgents with RPGs and Lightmachine guns had a range of advantage.

So the Morrow teams choice of weapons is an interesting. It has to be light, portable and effective. Without allowing a group of angry militia with hunting rifles in 3006 to shoot them to pieces from a distance.

So I guess first of all as of the 1980s all Stoner systems are gone, too heavy and unreliable.

And probably most infantry units, are 2 M4s, one with a grenade launcher one as a DSM, a minimi and a 7.62 DSM rifle.

I heard a rumor that the French are upgunning their tracked and wheeled APCs. The .50 BMGs are being outranged by Islamic Insurgents with ZSU-23-2s mounted in toyota pickups (technicals) on a regular basis.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by welsh

Thanks for the thoughts.

Bobcat- As for a 7.62 or .308 weapon system like the Stoner- honestly, I can see a better argument for that being developed by Morrow than fusion powered cars, but that would require some creativity by the game manager.

Sgt- interesting choices. I agree about your thoughts on ammo and water, and the importance of suppressive fire. If the team could offset ammo weight with reduced weight in gear, would that change your balance?

Playing a more updated game, I agree with you about dropping the Mac-10, HK69, and the M-60. Why not an HK MP5 instead of the Uzi? Interesting choice with the Ultimax-100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100 . ANy thoughts on the HK416? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK416

4TH Ed. has the MP5 in the Project Weapons, The M249 is found in the Survivor's Weapons section and in the module "Fall Back" which repeats the Survivor's Weapons chart.

[Rockwolf66]

I'm not a fan of the Ultimak 100. The Mark II version used Proprietary magazines and during testing by the US Navy 25% of all stoppages were the drum falling out.

Plus magazines are not what is needed is any serious sustained fire roll.

Personally I believe that the Ares Shrike is a better idea as it's much more modular in design.

[.45cultist]

I think the Shrike can even use P-Rails and thier options, some PC will want to mount an M203 below one!

[Ieqo]

I tend to resist any temptation to replace the Stoner 63 system. It is iconic of the Project. It is easy to simply say that Project planners in the 60s and 70s bought/stole/somehow acquired the original machinist drawings from Eugene Stoner and their armorers were able to solve the reliability issues. Hell, maybe they recruited Eugene Stoner, himself.

But no, the Stoners, the Browning Hi-Powers, and the XR-311s are part of the Project zeitgeist for me. Over the years folks have taken to the internet with "improved" weapon loads (one fellow in particular must have owned stock in H&K or something because his Project was all H&K, all the time), lots of HMMWV variants suggested, etc. Nope. Keep the Stoners, the Brownings, and the 311s. It keeps the "feel" of the Project firmly in the realm of "A Bunch Of Eggheads Trying To Be The Peace Corps With Guns", rather than drifting into "Full-Blown Paramilitary Organization That Claims To Have Altruistic Goals".

[Project_Sardonicus]

You know you're right.

I got 4th edition and all the body armour and M4s made teams look like any kind of modern military unit.

The projects, eccentric mix of gear is far more pleasing.

Especially the what the heck were they thinking factor with some stuff.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Ieqo

I tend to resist any temptation to replace the Stoner 63 system. It is iconic of the Project. It is easy to simply say that Project planners in the 60s and 70s bought/stole/somehow acquired the original machinist drawings from Eugene Stoner and their armorers were able to solve the reliability issues. Hell, maybe they recruited Eugene Stoner, himself.

But no, the Stoners, the Browning Hi-Powers, and the XR-311s are part of the Project zeitgeist for me. Over the years folks have taken to the internet with "improved" weapon loads (one fellow in particular must have owned stock in H&K or something because his Project was all H&K, all the time), lots of HMMWV variants suggested, etc. Nope. Keep the Stoners, the Brownings, and the 311s. It keeps the "feel" of the Project firmly in the realm of "A Bunch Of Eggheads Trying To Be The Peace Corps With Guns", rather than drifting into "Full-Blown Paramilitary Organization That Claims To Have Altruistic Goals".

So with the 4th Edition rewrite you're advocating for the 2017 timeline but, with a Morrow Project utilizing 1970s and early 1980s tech levels?

You know this drops the Projects Tech Level, right? Gives the Rich Five and the Frozen Chosen an advantage.

Probably means the Snake Eaters are worse of 1970s and 1960s tech level.

With only cryotubes, early fusion plants, and lasers just making the cut.

Do able, probably fun too. However, most people picking up the 4th edition are not 40, 50, or 60 years plus and nostalgic like we are. They don't get it because they never lived it.

[ArmySGT.]

Moreover, I expect the Morrow Project to be the "Early Adopters". The ones that give it a try, even when they know there will be glitches and production problems.

Do expect them to use current and in use materials and equipment? Yes, the costs come down significantly when done so. I also expect them to take foolish risks like MK2 lasers and HAAM suits, man portable 1kt fusion backpack bombs, or autogyros.

I also expect the Morrow Project to ignore NATO procurement rules and the consensus thinking of the Military Industrial Complex.

I expect the Morrow Project to define their own needs, wants, and parameters. To choose among what is offered and what has to be built in house to fill it.

The Dreamers vs the Accountants in a winner takes all; Death Match!

[Ieqo]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You know this drops the Projects Tech Level, right? Gives the Rich Five and the Frozen Chosen an advantage.

Damn, you broke the code. Yeah, I'm totally okay with the Project being outgunned by a national military (the Rich Five/KFS) and out-teched by a few groups. Thinking with your trigger-finger is (and should be in my opinion) a great way to bunches of folks dead in my games.

Having said that, I'm well aware that that's simply my style of play and doesn't invalidate any other style of play.

As to the 4th Edition, I haven't bought it yet, and the more I hear about it, the less likely a $50 investment becomes*. I like Chris and I wish him all the best; I just disagree with the direction he seems to have taken.

* Completely apropos of nothing, there would seem to be a "Fourth Edition Curse" among the RPG industry. The 4th Ed of GURPS sucks. The 4th Ed of D&D doesn't even bear mentioning. T4 likewise for us Traveller aficionados. Hell, even the 4th Edition of Call of Cthulhu ranks in my least favorites.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

I'm not a fan of the Ultimak 100. The Mark II version used Proprietary magazines and during testing by the US Navy 25% of all stoppages were the drum falling out.

Plus magazines are not what is needed is any serious sustained fire roll.

Personally I believe that the Ares Shrike is a better idea as it's much more modular in design.

Fills the role of the Automatic Rifle, like the Browning Automatic Rifle. Short engagement times and controlled bursts. Long engagement, sustained fire, and suppression are the role of the Machinegun.

Using the Ultimax 100 differentiates the Project from U.S. Government forces. Something else that could be manufactured in quantity overseas without U.S. government knowledge then shipped in surreptitiously.