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#2
11-18-2010, 04:11 PM
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I've always had issues with Bruce the time traveller for exactly the reasons you brought up. If BTT is bopping back and forth across the team stream, then he has to know that his Project is going to have a major screwup and be delayed 150+ years, which leads to etc.etc.etc. Its short of like trying to keep all of the Doctor Who storylines straight, sooner or later you have to stop becuase it hurts too much...
 If you approach it from another angle, Bruce and the Council of Tommorrow, then there are several kinky twists you can toss into the pie...namely just who is on the COT. Simply adding someone like Albert Einstein into the mix can open all kinds of possibilities (just what was he working on for the last ten years of his life?). I can see someone gathering some of the US/UK political/military/industrial/scientitific leaders and convincing them of an upcoming atomic war. Simply starting this in 1952 or so will convience them of the dire consquences of the Soviets getting the Bomb, the development of IRBMs/ICBMs. Many of these people would already be familiar with maintaining secrecy due to their involvement with the Manhatten Project, it would be a logical step towards the Morrow Project. Submitted for your appoval...from the Twilight Zone! 
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#3
11-18-2010, 07:35 PM
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You also have to remember that Bruce E. Morrow was extremely adamant against the building of Prime Base because he KNEW it was going to fail. It says so in the Prime Base module. He did not want it built, but the Council for Tomorrow built Prime Base during one of his forays into the future. And when he got back, prime base was under construction and all he could do was fume about it. To make him happy the Council allowed him to put together the PHOENIX Team, a team that many have seen as a death squad. But they aren't. They are Bruce's ace in the hole as it were. A team of special forces operators who are dedicated to the US Constitution and the ideals of the Project... And know that if someone in (our out) of the Project become a treat to the Constitution, they can deal with it (goes back to the US Armed Forces oath to protect & defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign & domestic).
Seeing Bruce as a cold and callus man is kind of... well, wrong. All of the modules and source material showed Bruce as being a kind and compassionate man, and one who tried to set the project up in a way that the loss of Prime Base wouldn't totally screw the pooch as it where, and it would still be able to do the right thing when the time comes.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#4
11-19-2010, 07:27 AM
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to quote Chief Miles Edward O'Brien "I hate temporal mechanics"
If we go with the now-accepted view of the "infinite quantum reality" theory, we can argue that Bruce was only travelling alone one reality, were, lets argue that humanity went tits up in 1989 (if I recall correctly), the US started rebuilding in 1994, was a strong power again in 2050, and lets say ended up with regular space travel to and fro Mars in 2100. However, what could have happened was that he also saw the problem with having "Prime Base" and went back in time to try and stop it, but he could only travel linearly, in other words he could not go back a further 10 yrs to tell himself to double check and stop it. As for Krell, we could argue he too has the ability to time travel, or that he is using a project cryobed However, this all falls under the purview of Dulmer and Luskly, not an engineer.
__________________
Newbie DM/PM/GM Semi-experienced player Mostly a sci-fi nut, who plays a few PC games. I do some technical and vehicle drawings in my native M20 scale. - http://braden1986.deviantart.com/
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#5
11-19-2010, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#7
11-19-2010, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
ALSO the fact is that I am going to be the one who is writing the Organizational Book on how the Project is going to be doing its work. Thus i'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Your rebuttal was rude in that you are claiming to know everything about this game, but you don't. Because check under "Wandering Warlock" and the strong hint that he's Bruce E. Morrow. That shows him to be a kind and compassionate man who takes a hard line against those communities that go against the ideals of the US Constitution. But using your own logical, your ideal that he's a cold hearted bastard is totally out of character. because NO WHERE is that in the books. But him doing his damnedest to make sure the Project personnel are capable of doing their jobs, and that they wouldn't abuse their positions was one of his highest priorities. That's in every one of the books.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#8
11-20-2010, 04:49 AM
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I would say that people need to take a step back, a couple of deep breaths and then re-read the game books AND provide edition numbers and page numbers next time they want to argue this because Drashal is correct in the statement that the main book does NOT state that the Project was set up to rebuild the USA following the ideals of the US Constitution. If it is stated as such in any of the editions, it may be that he doesn't have that particular one and it would be handy for future reference if we knew which edition it was.
The main book I have with me right now is the 3rd edition and what it says in the Introduction is, to quote... "In 1962 a mysterious man known by the name of Bruce Edward Morrow, origin unknown, gathered nine of the country's leading industrialists into an organization known as the Council of Tomorrow" Note the the name of the country isn't even mentioned, it seems to have been taken as given that the game would be distributed mainly in the USA and everyone would simply assume that the Project was in the USA (not an unfair assumption given that most RPGs were at that time from the US). "What method of coercion he may have used to achieve this feat remains a matter mostly for conjecture. The concensus of noted historians indicates that Morrow was a rare form of esper. He seemed to have possessed the ability to transport himself and some small amount of nearby matter into or out of the future. Building a convincing argument from the future, he and the council structured an organization dedicated to the continued survival of the human race beyond the point of destruction." Further down the Introduction, the end specifically, it states "Pledged to help humanity recover in whatever way they can, they can easily lose sight of their own ideals and adopt the brutal code of survival. They must find Prime Base and each other in order to survive. Will your team survive?" It does state in paragraph two of the Introduction that the plan of the Project was "...to cryogenically freeze special teams and equipment to aid in the reconstruction of the U.S. after nuclear war." so in this instance we can see that it was indeed the plan of the Project to rebuild the USA but anything further than that is mere speculation or personal belief. Even in the additional role playing supplement by H.N. Voss, there is no mention of the Project's goal being to rebuild the US based upon the ideals of the constitution. As for the Wandering Warlock, in the 3rd edition it definitely hints that the man is Morrow but it definitely does not say that he takes a hardline against communities that go against the ideals of the US Constitution. In fact it doesn't say much at all about him, certainly nothing to give the idea that he is a time traveller or a fighter for the constitution. What it says about his character is as follows: - "He always appears out of nowhere at times of crisis and seeks to help the common people. He has no tolerance of power seekers but will rarely become directly involved." There's been a lot of years since the game was published and there's been a lot of pages on the net dedicated to the subject, the idea that the Project was dedicated to rebuilding the US along the lines of the constitution may well be desirable to some but it appears that it was a later addition to the game, either as an afterthought once the earlier editions (up to 3rd Ed. at least) had been released or in response to speculation by the fans. Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 11-20-2010 at 05:18 AM. Reason: adding stuff
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#9
11-26-2010, 10:16 PM
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As a side note, I agree the Project is there to explicitly "aid in the reconstruction of the US after a nuclear war", as stated relatively early in the Intro to TM 1-1. The "US" (as opposed to America or North America) is a discrete socio-political-cultural entity, and is a much more narrow definition than merely "civilisation" in general or "humanity". After all, even the most pessimistic (but realistic real world) estimates predicted civilisation's eventual recovery after a nuclear war, even without the Project so in the strictest sense the Project is superfluous. Therefore it's logical to assume that the Project was formed to promote a certain kind of civilisation, one embodied by the pre-war United States of America.
Dockery mentioned the Phoenix team was primarily created in response to playtest groups that routinely went rogue. So being in-house troubleshooters was in response to a real problem. In my game, Phoenix also has a think-tank element, not just a hit-team. This think-tank would mainly be responsible for the "top level" thinking for the Project's strategic vision, but also send out Phoenix when necessary. Quote:
You may as well say the president of the White Star line was extremely adamant against the building of the Titanic because they KNEW it would sink. Or anyone be against anything that, in hindsight, was not a good idea. There is no indication whatsoever (I can find in Prime Base, at least) that Bruce was "extremely adamant" or even mildly opposed to building Prime Base. Just that he didn't want to be part of the staff (pg 10). On page 8 it says one rationale for building PB was that is was recognised such a facility was "essential". I could be missing something! I think there are much better ways of explaining Prime and various seeming problems with time travel. Reasons why it seemed a "good" idea at the time, and no one even did what, to us, seems like an elementary risk-assessment of a central control point. (For the sake of argument I take it that the most obvious explanation is correct: Morrow is an Esper/PSI that can somehow travel through time. As well, I've decided not to entertain any BEM, Evil Genius-thinking, where he allows the war to happen/Prime to fail/etc. on purpose, or that he's not some kind of charlatan.) Bear in mind, Morrow was a strong-willed individual with his own preconceptions. He was not perfect and he changed the timeline on the fly, more than once without knowing what the exact outcome would be. (If he did, he would not have needed to make more than one trip to check how the future was proceeding, and introduce radical fixes based on that trip.) Morrow gambled with the timeline, and lost because he found out the hard way he wasn't omniscient. Call it the Black Swan effect, the Butterfly effect, what have you. Timeline A: The original future that Morrow visits. No Project, outcome assumed bad for the US. For my own game, I assume this is because while the US abandoned Civil Defense the USSR never did, so the possible "end game" for this timeline might be Soviet global domination centuries after a preemptive nuclear war triggered in the last gasps of a failing Soviet Union. This future is certainly a horrifying prospect for a capitalist, not to mention patriot, like Morrow!. (The latter elements is purely my conjecture, of course, but fits into the core themes of TMP.) Timeline B: Morrow begins the Morrow Project, which presumably alters the timeline by its very existence. Morrow again visits the future to see how things are progressing. Obviously something is deeply amiss in Timeline B's future, because he seriously disrupts causality by bringing significant future tech back to the past (1979) before it's invented. By creating the Project in the past he does alter the future, but then again anyone with similar vision, willpower, drive and resources could still create the Project using the technology of the time (according to the game). Actually bringing significant technology from the future seriously violates causality and creates paradoxes that are not as easily reconciled. My own conjecture is the future he sees is even more bleak, with (say) a somehow deficient or hamstrung Project only succeeds rebuilding the US to a point where a stalemate is again reached, and a new Cold War is ignited leads to a WWIV where everyone (or almost everyone) dies and human civilsation is permanently extinguished (thus the Project is rebuilding "civilisation" in a wider context). Morrow introduces this "impossible" future equipment as fixes to problems he sees with the Project. One "1987 Update" fix was the adoption of Fusion power. The rationale that was alluded to Dockery was that without it, in playtests onboard nuclear reactors seemed too dangerous and other games otherwise devolved into a "search for fuel" (a la T2K). So its reasonable to assume this takes place in Timeline B, too, for the same reason, among other changes (more on these in a minute). Timeline C: The game timeline. Not only is the future timeline altered, it's been altered again specifically for the Project. More significantly, changes Morrow himself introduced now come into play, making the timeline far different from what he intended. This was a roundabout way of saying that far from being horrified by the introduction of a central command node and outmaneuvered by the COT or others, Morrow himself could be unintentionally responsible for Prime's failure. If, in Timeline B, one of the problems Morrow is there to discover is that a decentralised Project somehow splits into competing factions or even falls apart into warring groups, a strongly centralising command and control would be a logical step. Further, any parallel attempts by Morrow at manipulating world events (like, peacefully ending the Cold War in 1989) could have somehow backfired, causing a far worse and/or different war than he was expecting. Morrow is not omniscient. If he were, there would never be any need to change things again by introducing fixes in 1979. The a logical rationale for why fatal errors were introduced to the Project is these were the result of fixes introduced to "solve" problems that have yet to happen, as is more-or-less established to be Morrow's operating method in TM 1-1 in the introduction. As to why Morrow didn't see the obvious flaw in a central command post that can be taken out to hamstring the Project, bear in mind had seen the future, and in the future where there's a Project (Timeline B) Prime was as safe as kittens. Further, as to why no underling pointed out this flaw, there is a real-life business phenomenon called the "reality distortion field" (RDF) or "Steve Jobs effect". "The RDF is said to be Steve Jobs' ability to convince himself and others to believe almost anything with a mix of charm, charisma, bluster, exaggeration, marketing, appeasement, and persistence. RDF is said to distort an audience's sense of proportion and scales of difficulties and makes them believe that the task at hand is possible."Now, Steve Jobs isn't even an Esper, he's just a baseline human, if not exactly ordinary. If he can do this without Esper abilities, so could Morrow (and not just to the COT). If you went to Morrow and said, "uh, sir, building a Prime Base like this is insanely risky for glaringly obvious reasons..." by the end of the meeting you'd probably end up gushing "...gee, I see it now, organising the entire Project around Prime Base like you say is not only the most logical way to do it, but I feel like an idiot for ever thinking otherwise!" If Morrow had some kind of low-level Esper ability he wasn't aware of that helped convince people even more on some subconscious level, it's scary to think what he could accomplish without meaning to. So... Prime Base might not be a plot against Morrow. It could instead actually be his fault. Not because he's evil or stupid, but because he's human and subject to hubris and a belief in his own infallibility. Tony
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#10
11-29-2010, 04:00 PM
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I'm not saying the Bruce didn't want a headquarters. He just didn't want an 'All the eggs in one basket' approach that Prime Base ended up being... having a centrally located command & control centre allows for just that ONE place being knocked out, taking the entire project out with one swift stroke.
That's what Bruce didn't want to have happen. Having Phoenix Team frozen in place in Prime Base allowed for Bruce to have 'an ace in the hole' when PB went down, knowing that when someone woke the team up... they'd get the project kick-started. And while the project doesn't get started in the 5 to 10 year original timeframe, it still get's started... just in a different world than they had expected to find.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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