RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-05-2019, 08:34 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default Optional New House Rule I Borrowed

As you all know, I mod my games quite a bit. For those who don't know, I added various Difficulty Levels to the RAW V2.2 game system and simply "shift" up or down in Difficulty Level for modifications to fire combat like movement and cover. Here's a list of my Difficulty Levels in case you are looking at my posted "house rules" here in the forum. I figure a base skill just like RAW (Characteristic + Skill Level) but my Difficulty Levels are less Course than RAW.

EASY (2 X Base Skill)
ROUTINE (1.5 X Base Skill)
AVERAGE (Base Skill)
DIFFICULT (0.5 X Base Skill)
FORMIDABLE (0.25 X Base Skill)
IMPOSSIBLE (0.1 X Base Skill)

While I have no complaints about the system in general, on some occasions the characters can get overwhelmed by the reductions to a point where they cannot succeed at a skill check (without a crit anyway).

I was looking for an easy to employ and fast to mediate mechanical "penalty for things like a poor position in HTH or a temporary reduction due to an enemy's action. I found such a mechanic in a strange place... as a player in a D&D5e game. The mechanic in question is the ADVANTAGE & DISADVANTAGE Mechanic.

ADVANTAGE & DISADVANTAGE DURING PLAY:

The way this mechanic works is that the player rolls TWO 1D20s instead of just one. IF the character has ADVANTAGE, they take the LOWER of the two rolls and discard the higher one. IF the character is DISADVANTAGED, they must take the HIGHER of the two rolls and discard the lower one. This provides a sufficient penalty or bonus WITHOUT adversely affecting the base target number.

I can see this mechanic being employed when a player is disoriented by an attack but you don't want to fully punish them with a major base skill reduction or to give a small advantage to a character who does something original during play.

All in all, I find this mechanic a good addition to a Twilight2000 V2.2 game.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:39 PM
Vespers War Vespers War is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 93
Default

Back when D&D 5e was being playtested with the advantage/disadvantage rules that used to be called "luck" in AD&D 2e's Jakandor setting, someone ran the math and figured they're effectively equivalent to +4/-4 when calculating odds.
__________________
The poster formerly known as The Dark

The Vespers War - Ninety years before the Twilight War, there was the Vespers War.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:53 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,821
Default

That's a damned fine idea, it's a quick & neat rule that'll allow us to play around a little with the distinctions between Difficulty Levels without shifting an entire Level.

My experience with the Advantage/Disadvantage system in D&D 5th isn't so positive - there's a feeling around the table that, although the odds should be the same, the chance for success with Advantage is less than the chance for penalty with Disadvantage. As far as I know, nobody has checked to see if this is actually true or if it's all psychological but I do find that the rule itself has a middling to negligible impact on the game.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:52 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,659
Default

I too have experimented with using the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in my PbP T2K campaign. I see granting Advantage as a way to reward player effort. I don't think I'd implement disadvantage, though- the world of T2K is harsh enough.

I've also toyed with Inspiration Points, which are awarded by the DM/Ref for creative gameplay, problem-solving, exceptional RP'ing, and that sort of thing. A player can have one IP at a time and cash it in at a time of his or her choosing. Oh, your player just took a round to the head, resulting in an insta-kill? Cash in that IP and we'll re-roll the enemy's to-hit chance or the hit location. Want to throw that frag into the open commanders hatch of a T-72 at 20m? Cash in that IP to get two Thrown Weapon rolls.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:00 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,821
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
I too have experimented with using the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in my PbP T2K campaign. I see granting Advantage as a way to reward player effort. I don't think I'd implement disadvantage, though- the world of T2K is harsh enough.

I've also toyed with Inspiration Points, which are awarded by the DM/Ref for creative gameplay, problem-solving, exceptional RP'ing, and that sort of thing. A player can have one IP at a time and cash it in at a time of his or her choosing. Oh, your player just took a round to the head, resulting in an insta-kill? Cash in that IP and we'll re-roll the enemy's to-hit chance or the hit location. Want to throw that frag into the open commanders hatch of a T-72 at 20m? Cash in that IP to get two Thrown Weapon rolls.
Your use of Inspiration Points reminds me of one aspect of the 2013 rules that I rather liked - the ability to sacrifice a piece of "useful" equipment to negate a damaging wound. By "useful" the implication was that items such as spare magazines, water bottles etc. etc. could be sacrificed but useless items could then be prevented from being hoarded to "trade in" whenever a wound was received.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:51 AM
Lurken Lurken is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Your use of Inspiration Points reminds me of one aspect of the 2013 rules that I rather liked - the ability to sacrifice a piece of "useful" equipment to negate a damaging wound. By "useful" the implication was that items such as spare magazines, water bottles etc. etc. could be sacrificed but useless items could then be prevented from being hoarded to "trade in" whenever a wound was received.
Oooh, I like that one. I'll use that in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:08 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
I too have experimented with using the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in my PbP T2K campaign. I see granting Advantage as a way to reward player effort. I don't think I'd implement disadvantage, though- the world of T2K is harsh enough.

I've also toyed with Inspiration Points, which are awarded by the DM/Ref for creative gameplay, problem-solving, exceptional RP'ing, and that sort of thing. A player can have one IP at a time and cash it in at a time of his or her choosing. Oh, your player just took a round to the head, resulting in an insta-kill? Cash in that IP and we'll re-roll the enemy's to-hit chance or the hit location. Want to throw that frag into the open commanders hatch of a T-72 at 20m? Cash in that IP to get two Thrown Weapon rolls.
You're limiting your options not using DISADVANTAGE. It is the ideal mechanic for a temporary penalty due to player positioning or behavior. It would be useful for inflicting penalties on the "bad guys" too.

I like the INSPIRATION mechanic BUT two of my players come from the "gritty realism" camp and might not approve. The other two come from the "in video games every hero is invincible after the third encounter" camp. I must walk a fine line between the two camps.

This is my one really major complaint about D&D 5e. It creates "superheroes" NOT "adventurers" in the vein of old AD&D. The FEATS are over the top and EVERY CLASS has access to magic. WTF? Give me what my nephew calls "Vietnam Era AD&D" every time!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:20 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurken View Post
Oooh, I like that one. I'll use that in the future.
There are several decent rules in TW2K13 that can be "retrofitted" to the other editions.

- They have the best Coolness Under Fire rules in my opinion.
- The use of QUALIFICATIONS (essentially a skill within a skill) is a very good idea.
- Their scrounging rules are second to none.
- I even like how they do Frag and Concussion (called Blast Damage).

It is worth picking up and Far Future Enterprises has it on CD-Rom.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:23 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Your use of Inspiration Points reminds me of one aspect of the 2013 rules that I rather liked - the ability to sacrifice a piece of "useful" equipment to negate a damaging wound. By "useful" the implication was that items such as spare magazines, water bottles etc. etc. could be sacrificed but useless items could then be prevented from being hoarded to "trade in" whenever a wound was received.
I've done this unofficially quite a few times, as GM. I wonder if my players realize that I'm deliberately helping them out, and whether they appreciate it or resent it.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus

Last edited by Raellus; 05-08-2019 at 06:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:41 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
You're limiting your options not using DISADVANTAGE. It is the ideal mechanic for a temporary penalty due to player positioning or behavior. It would be useful for inflicting penalties on the "bad guys" too.
Maybe, but I feel like players punish themselves within the rules by taking foolhardy, reckless actions. If a player charges a machine gun nest across 100m of open field, logical consequences will very likely follow. Rolling Disadvantage against the PCs in additional to circumstantial factors is practically a guarantee of disastrous results. I'd never thought about using it for OPFOR, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
I like the INSPIRATION mechanic BUT two of my players come from the "gritty realism" camp and might not approve. The other two come from the "in video games every hero is invincible after the third encounter" camp. I must walk a fine line between the two camps.
I get it. As a GM, you've got to be judicious, and set reasonable limits.

-
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-09-2019, 03:32 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Maybe, but I feel like players punish themselves within the rules by taking foolhardy, reckless actions. If a player charges a machine gun nest across 100m of open field, logical consequences will very likely follow. Rolling Disadvantage against the PCs in additional to circumstantial factors is practically a guarantee of disastrous results. I'd never thought about using it for OPFOR, though.



I get it. As a GM, you've got to be judicious, and set reasonable limits.

-
I have a "min-maxer" (our European members would call him a "munchkin") I have to keep a tight reign on. To give you an idea of how bad it is, He played a BUGBEAR Barbarian/Bard multiclassed character in D&D5e. He literally "dissects" a rulebook looking for "exploits" to increase his chances of dominating the game.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:13 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
I have a "min-maxer" (our European members would call him a "munchkin") I have to keep a tight reign on. To give you an idea of how bad it is, He played a BUGBEAR Barbarian/Bard multiclassed character in D&D5e. He literally "dissects" a rulebook looking for "exploits" to increase his chances of dominating the game.
Yeah, got one of them here two. Delves deep into the books to find the absolute "best" mix of class/race/skills.
Have another who tends to fudge rolls if you're not closely watching each and every one. Not sure which of them is worse....
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:44 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
That's a damned fine idea, it's a quick & neat rule that'll allow us to play around a little with the distinctions between Difficulty Levels without shifting an entire Level.

My experience with the Advantage/Disadvantage system in D&D 5th isn't so positive - there's a feeling around the table that, although the odds should be the same, the chance for success with Advantage is less than the chance for penalty with Disadvantage. As far as I know, nobody has checked to see if this is actually true or if it's all psychological but I do find that the rule itself has a middling to negligible impact on the game.
In our gaming sessions, it has been basically positive. I use it for "momentary" benefit or penalty during play. Gain surprise on a soldier who knew they were being attacked BUT did not know YOU were there? ADVANTAGE on the next attack. Suppressed by enemy fire BUT not over your CUF score yet (I use TW2K13 Coolness rules)? DISADVANTAGE for that round (only). Making a grappling attack and getting outstanding success? The opponent rolls his escape with DISADVANTAGE. Overall, I like the mechanic very much.

One area where the mechanic CAN complicate things is when using Autofire. Under my house rules, a weapon has a Rate of Fire (hereafter ROF) equal to its cyclic rate/100. So for an AKM (ROF 600), you will be rolling 6 D20s for a burst every Phase/Initiative Step. If the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is implemented, you are now rolling 12 D20s. This can get out of control and bog down the game.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:58 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Yeah, got one of them here two. Delves deep into the books to find the absolute "best" mix of class/race/skills.
Have another who tends to fudge rolls if you're not closely watching each and every one. Not sure which of them is worse....
That's a tough one there. The rolls guy would HATE my games. I use the roll as a sort of "narrative tool" during play. I have my players roll the To Hit die, the Location die, and the Damage dice all at the same time. This allows me to instantly see...

- Was there a hit?
- Where was the target hit?
- How badly was the target hit?

I can then "narrate" the hit to the players very quickly and precisely and keep the action flowing. I tend towards a more "cinematic" style these days (to keep my younger player's interest) and being "descriptive" really pays off.

I have even thought (HARD) about adding in Special Effects like those found in Legend/Mythras that will allow the Characters to gain such Effects if they roll either 5 or 10 UNDER the needed score (with lesser Effects at 5 and the better effects at 10) on the Task roll.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:35 PM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,821
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
In our gaming sessions, it has been basically positive. I use it for "momentary" benefit or penalty during play. Gain surprise on a soldier who knew they were being attacked BUT did not know YOU were there? ADVANTAGE on the next attack. Suppressed by enemy fire BUT not over your CUF score yet (I use TW2K13 Coolness rules)? DISADVANTAGE for that round (only). Making a grappling attack and getting outstanding success? The opponent rolls his escape with DISADVANTAGE. Overall, I like the mechanic very much.

One area where the mechanic CAN complicate things is when using Autofire. Under my house rules, a weapon has a Rate of Fire (hereafter ROF) equal to its cyclic rate/100. So for an AKM (ROF 600), you will be rolling 6 D20s for a burst every Phase/Initiative Step. If the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic is implemented, you are now rolling 12 D20s. This can get out of control and bog down the game.
Sounds like it makes a good addition to the T2k rules.
When I was talking about Advantage/Disadvantage not seeming to make much impact I was talking explicitly about its impact within D&D 5th. It feels like it was created as a way to keep modifiers in the newest version of D&D without actually having any set modifiers.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.