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  #151  
Old 03-04-2011, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry View Post
It fired full auto until the magazine ran out, 1 shot hit not much.

The safety catch on the SLR could be "adapted" by removing the bent of metal that was put there to stop the selector switching to the full auto setting. Or at a push the FAL catch could fit, but why would anyone want to do it, unless firing blanks, is the question. The SLR barrel was not as heavy as the FN barrel, so it wouldn't take too many 20 round bursts, before accuracy would suffer. Plus the gas system would foul very quickly.

There is a reason for the GPMG being in service, almost the personal weapon of the Paras in the Falklands. In my opinion, the best General purpose 7.62x51mm machine gun.................................In the world.
There was a particular trick to it, if you placed the match in just the right spot, you could get it to fire only when you pulled the trigger. Otherwise it would work just as you said - full auto until you got to 'empty'.
Having said that though, I completely agree with you, automatic fire from a 7.62mmN rifle is not particularly good for anything except making noise and hitting passing birds.
As for the MAG58 being the best 7.62x51mm GPMG in the world, when you have countries even now converting from their own designs to the MAG* which is a design now 50 years old - then those Belgians must have done something right!


*On 10 December 2010 The French Direction Général de l'Armament (DGA) announced that after an international competition it had selected the MAG 58 to replace its aging fleet of AAT Mle F1 7.62 mm general purpose machine guns. Although primarily intended for use mounted on vehicles in service with the French army, kits to convert the vehicle mounted guns into guns for use in the dismounted role would also be supplied. In excess of 10,000 guns are to be supplied over the next few years with an initial order for 500 guns due for delivery in 2011
Snippet taken from here
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  #152  
Old 03-09-2011, 06:57 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Yeah well it seems the Belgiums usually get it right when it comes to making firearms...
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  #153  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:32 PM
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Shame their cousins over the border in France can't seem to get it together though - there's the St. Etienne 07/16, AAT-52, and Chauchat.
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  #154  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:32 PM
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The only problem with the "Holiday Blitz" is that it takes a little while to go from sitting around in the motorpool to ready to kick ass and take names. This will get spotted, and while it might not be enough to warn that they are about to roll west, it is enough that leaves and such will be cancelled. So, there won't be a situation such as that.

However:

There is always a catch. In Red Storm Rising, Clancy used a surprise attack- with the surprise being on both NATO, and most of the Russian Troops as well. Going from Motorpool to combat ops with no getting ready for it is sure to be a shocking surprise, and one that would let the Russians fall on units that are not there because they are off skiing in the alps. Of course, you had better hope that you can back the play, as you won't have much in logistics built up.
will get spotted? like in 1952 a few miles north of where im sitting? its not hard to spoof pogishness(is that even a word, well it is now)
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  #155  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:01 PM
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Actually, with mechanised forces is rather easy to spot - provided the force in question has someone in charge that has a working brain. Fuel trucks you might think, but no, for tanks use craptastic amounts of fuel, even if they sit in the motor pool 3 days out of 4. Services? Nope, tanks by their very nature are maintenance hogs: the good ones are simply well stressed, the bad ones over-stressed, but they are all stressed to the point where maintenance has to be done all the time. Nope, the number one reason why its easy to spot a armoured unit getting ready to roll someplace, with little to no down time expected is tracks.

Tracks.

They don't last that long, even the all steel ones (usually no more than 1000 to 1500 miles in peacetime, half that at best in war - with the soviet style ones being even less durable), and they are a bitch to swap out. When you are getting ready to pick a fight, the last thing you want your tanks to do is throw track, so you pull the old ones, use them as spares, armour, what have you, and put new ones on - even if they are expensive. So, if you are some photo guy, and you see 90% of the tanks in the bad guys motor pool lining up to swap track, you know they are getting ready to go someplace where they don't expect to have the time nor freedom to do when, not if, they break unexpectedly. Even when we went to Iraq for the invasion, almost all our tanks, even the ones that had less than a 150km on them, got new track for that very reason.

Its always the little things that really tell the tale if a threat is real or not.

Its one of the reasons I always had a separate wear value for track in the games I run. The PC's spend almost as much time looking for track as they do for ammo for the Beast.
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  #156  
Old 03-09-2011, 10:19 PM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Yeah it is the small details that people don't think about. It one of those things I like about these boards is that when you get people who had experience they tend to point out things that a great GM will take and incorporate into their game. Or ideas how to manage their game without going overboard....
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  #157  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:49 AM
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Another key indicator would be batteries. A lot of people don't realize just how dependent modern militaries are on the ole dry-cell. Everything thing from NVGs, to handheld lasers, chemical alarms, all the way up to batteries for the starting carts for jets, and even the batteries on diesel-electric submarines. Fresh batteries are easier to recharge and last longer than ones that have been in use. A spike in production of batteries or military equipment replacing batteries in its larger items would alert a sharp intell analyst.

Didn't Clancy use this in one of his books?
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  #158  
Old 03-10-2011, 06:40 AM
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Another key indicator would be batteries.

Didn't Clancy use this in one of his books?
"Red Storm Rising" if I remember correctly; the analyst spotting the subs all getting battery replacements in port.
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  #159  
Old 03-10-2011, 09:21 AM
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Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*
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  #160  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:33 PM
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Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.
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  #161  
Old 03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.
That's a VERY interesting case indeed. I knew Sururov had written on the subject but I haven't read the book and didn't know those details.

With that said, I did just finish Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and it seems that Hitler tipped his hand a bit with the invasion of Yugoslavia and the (costly) delay in Barbarossa it caused; if they (the Soviets) were going to get the jump on 'em, why not then when the Nazis' pants were around their ankles as they pissed on the Balkans?

I'm not doubting you (or Sururov) just adding more speculation to an already interesting scenario!
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  #162  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:18 PM
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Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.
I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.
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  #163  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:01 PM
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Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*
Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

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  #164  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:04 PM
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BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.
I've done this twice and its an intresting donnybrook all over Poland...
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  #165  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.
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  #166  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:12 PM
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*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.
Yeah the military runs on coffee...and none of that decaf stuff...
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  #167  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:14 PM
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You know by 2003 they had determined that smoking was bad for one's health...lol
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  #168  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:45 PM
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I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.
Perhaps Stalin felt that it was better to hold the strategic initiative, regardless of what was going on with the Red Army. It certainly would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Hitler had concluded that the adventure in the Balkans imposed such a delay on BARBAROSSA as to put completion out of the question in 1941, leaving the Soviets free to invade Eastern Europe during the winter. Oh my, the possibilities...!


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  #169  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:36 PM
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Perhaps Stalin felt that it was better to hold the strategic initiative, regardless of what was going on with the Red Army. It certainly would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Hitler had concluded that the adventure in the Balkans imposed such a delay on BARBAROSSA as to put completion out of the question in 1941, leaving the Soviets free to invade Eastern Europe during the winter. Oh my, the possibilities...!


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  #170  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:24 AM
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I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.
Read some the reviews of the book and some of the more than interesting points of views from the airchair "experts" and from within Russia. The most telling thing is the sources from with Russia exclaim to article there was no way Stalin would go back on his word of the Pact between Berlin and Moscow at the time. Most of the "experts" were split.

One of the telling things that strike me as odd, is that at the same time while the German were building up their forces forward, the Soviets were at the same time building up their forces in forward areas. As has been pointed out time and again, it was Stalin purges that had direct linked to why when the Soviets did attack say Finland, Poland, and then attack by the Germans later why they were successful. Yeah I know they were comparatively successful in Poland, but they were already heavily engage against the Germans.

Yet, due to Soviet/Russia military doctrine, one of the problem has always been where units readiness has always been over stated. At the time Soviets were actively also training their units in the fields and the Soviet High Command were evaluating the performance of units down to Regimental level. The one thing they were starting to realize how crippling the system of having their Commander having to strapped with a counterparts from the Party who would have to countersign their orders too. Also the fact the State Secret Police, (depending on time frame with it initials) also had spies at all levels with in all units.

The one intriguing thing is that Soviets could of caught the Germans with their pants down during the time with their conquest of Yugoslavia and other regions of the Balkans. Reality was the Soviets would have done little more than cross the starting lines when everything would of failed because Regimental, Divisional, Corps, and Army Commanders would of been left paralysis due to the system that Lenin and Stalin had impose onto the Red Army.

It was only after many of the Party Officers had been removed an active part of the chain command and many of them given their commands (that another story) that the Soviet military seem to get it act together. Of course, at this time they were forming new units with new weapons and lend-lease equipment were trickling in too.

Just some thoughts.
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  #171  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:31 AM
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You know by 2003 they had determined that smoking was bad for one's health...lol
That's because the Surgeon General never ran into a gen-u-wine Lifer!!!! Food is optional, coffee and cigs are not!

There was seen that was cut out of the movie "We were Soldiers" that had the Sergeant Major walking to headquarters with two canteen cups of coffee...I cant count the number of times that I have seen that same sequence of NCOs reporting to work with a canteen cup or two of ole mess hall lifer juice!
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  #172  
Old 03-11-2011, 07:56 AM
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That's because the Surgeon General never ran into a gen-u-wine Lifer!!!! Food is optional, coffee and cigs are not!

There was seen that was cut out of the movie "We were Soldiers" that had the Sergeant Major walking to headquarters with two canteen cups of coffee...I cant count the number of times that I have seen that same sequence of NCOs reporting to work with a canteen cup or two of ole mess hall lifer juice!
Yeah, but what brand did the mess hall used...lol
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  #173  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:09 AM
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Yeah, but what brand did the mess hall used...lol
Not really sure...but it was certainly packed with extra caffine...nothing could wake you up faster than Lifer Juice! And it was such a shame to add sugar or creamer to it the mix!

Never could drink the stuff before a gunnery though, the caffine overload would leave you shaking. Red Bull and the rest of these energy drinks just don't have the same punch....

I remember one Reforger, we stopped at an Air Base during the admin break, just for the chance to hit someplace with hot showers. Eating lunch in the "dining facility" was an experience! First mess hall that I ever saw with carpeting and wooden booths for the people to eat in. The chow was great, hard to believe that the Air Force and Army cooks train at the same location, but the coffee was as weak as the slush served in McDonalds...and the zoomies....armored cavalry troopers, straight off of a week straight of maneuvers, and ever man carrying his NBC mask and personel weapon and showing that thang called discipline....LMAO!!!!
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  #174  
Old 03-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Not really sure...but it was certainly packed with extra caffine...nothing could wake you up faster than Lifer Juice! And it was such a shame to add sugar or creamer to it the mix!

Never could drink the stuff before a gunnery though, the caffine overload would leave you shaking. Red Bull and the rest of these energy drinks just don't have the same punch....

I remember one Reforger, we stopped at an Air Base during the admin break, just for the chance to hit someplace with hot showers. Eating lunch in the "dining facility" was an experience! First mess hall that I ever saw with carpeting and wooden booths for the people to eat in. The chow was great, hard to believe that the Air Force and Army cooks train at the same location, but the coffee was as weak as the slush served in McDonalds...and the zoomies....armored cavalry troopers, straight off of a week straight of maneuvers, and ever man carrying his NBC mask and personel weapon and showing that thang called discipline....LMAO!!!!
Yeah I remember it. You are right it has nothing on the so called energy drinks that out today. The same thing with Mountain Dew that used to be on the market back in the 1980s and 1990s. It pack way more wake up punch than the version they are trying to sell now.
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Old 03-11-2011, 11:25 AM
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Did the export version of the T80 have the same gun as the Soviet's own equipment? I remember talking to a tanker after GW1; he described vividly the loud clang as a main armament round from a T80 (Manually traversed or not, they traversed fast enough) bounced off the front of his Challenger I; the T80 was then taken out by the first shot they fired in return.
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  #176  
Old 03-11-2011, 11:41 AM
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Did the export version of the T80 have the same gun as the Soviet's own equipment? I remember talking to a tanker after GW1; he described vividly the loud clang as a main armament round from a T80 (Manually traversed or not, they traversed fast enough) bounced off the front of his Challenger I; the T80 was then taken out by the first shot they fired in return.
Although Armored Cav by Tom Clancy is liberally sprinkled with apocrypha and fervor, one statement he made in the book I've heard corroborated elsewhere by a guy I worked with who was in GW1: the Iraqi long rod penetrator rounds were made from local tungsten, not imported. While the guns were likely entirely identical to what was in Russian/Soviet tanks of the day, the ammo was most definitely not.

I also seem to recall a story about a guy who received a silver star (or may have even been a DSC) after the M2 he was in took a direct hit front from a T55's main gun. The vehicle was an immediate loss and the driver and gunner (I believe) were killed instantly, the rest of the crew survived with injuries. As he was the only ambulatory passenger he was able to get everyone out of the track and away, and go back in and get TOW and gun rounds out to prevent an ammo explosion from killing them all due to their proximity. Now, the T55 mounts a 115mm main gun; I'm not sure if the Brad was sporting reactive armor or not, but if not a direct hit should have blown it off the face of the earth - unless perhaps it was an inferior locally manufactured round.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:34 PM
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I don't believe any Brads in GW1 were sent into Iraq/Kuwait with reactive armor fitted, but may be wrong.

A direct hit from a T-55 isn't a guaranteed kill on a Bradley, however. A friend of mine was in close proximity to a Bradley that took a hit from a T-72 in Baghdad where it rolled away under its own power. (Longer story -- the T-72 took a shot and missed at her NBC recon vehicle, the Bradley roared up to cover their getting out of there, took a hit, and then a passing M1, that was towing another disabled M1, popped the T-72 without slowing down and kept on going . . .)
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  #178  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:53 PM
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Did the export version of the T80 have the same gun as the Soviet's own equipment? I remember talking to a tanker after GW1; he described vividly the loud clang as a main armament round from a T80 (Manually traversed or not, they traversed fast enough) bounced off the front of his Challenger I; the T80 was then taken out by the first shot they fired in return.
AFAIK, T-80s were not sold to Iraq. Ever. It was probably a misidentified T-72E that your aquaintance saw.

There was a bit in the Greatest Tank Battles episode about the 73 Easting battle where a Brad was killed by a 73mm HEAT round fired by a BMP-1. Although a Bradley could conceivably luck out when hit by a 100+ mm AT shell, it would be the exception that proves the rule.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:41 AM
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Although Armored Cav by Tom Clancy is liberally sprinkled with apocrypha and fervor, one statement he made in the book I've heard corroborated elsewhere by a guy I worked with who was in GW1: the Iraqi long rod penetrator rounds were made from local tungsten, not imported. While the guns were likely entirely identical to what was in Russian/Soviet tanks of the day, the ammo was most definitely not.
For the non tankers on the list, a bit of background. There are two types of AT rounds, chemical and kinetic. An example of a chemical round is a HEAT warhead, this is a charge of explosive with a funnel imprinted into one end and usually lined with copper. Typically has a long tube pointing from the business end holding a stand off fuse. When the fuse hits the armor, the explosive is denotated forcing the copper from a metal and straight into a plasma state...this blast of molten hot metal burns through armor and spalls the interior of the vehicle with white hot fragments of armor...with the amount of ammo, fuel and other flammables stored inside a tank you almost always get a secondary explosion. Advantages is that with a direct strike, you almost always get a penetration, its easy to make, armor penetration is not affected by range. Disadvantages, its a heavy, slow round so the chance to hit at long range is badly degraded, its affected by cross-winds and it has to strike the armor at the right angle or you get a wonderful roman candle effect.

Kenetic rounds depend on the speed of the round. A AP round is simply a solid block of steel, this is the WWI/WWII primary AT round. You get penetration but thicker armor is more resistant. The Germans tried to get around this with the APHE round, penetration then a light explosive charge, but face-hardened armor stopped this. Then along comes the APCR, or taper-bore round, tungsten steel penetrator with a outer shell of aluminum, the force of firing squeezes the round into a smaller caliber, thus getting more speed. But shortages of tungsten (and the complicated manufacture process) caused this to be dropped by the Nazis. The British designed the first real advance in 1945 with the APDS. A tungsten steel penetrator with, at first a wooden shoe or "sabot" (later replaced with aluminum) that allowed the advantages of APCR without the manufacture issues.

The Soviets designed the first APDSFS with the introduction of the T-62 and its 115mm smooth-bore cannon. Fin Stabilized took care of a problem with APDS, that of the spin causing the round to drift a few mils to the right during long range engagements. This was the first kenetic round to be used out to 2,000 meters. Still used the tungsten steel penetrator. Sometime around 1978-79, the US started deploying the APDSDU round, replacing tungsten steel with depleted uranimum. DU seemed to be the perfect combination of light weight and high tensile strength. Armor penetration was several times greater than that of tungsten steel. Shortly afterwards the US started deployment of the APDSFSDU rounds. Since the M-60A1/A3 tanks used rifled cannons, there was a counter-rotating feature to allow for the full advantage of FS. This is also the main reason why the decision to go with the German 120mm came about. Yes it was poltical decision, but the lack of a native smoothbore design also played a major role. This allowed the APDSFSDU to be made more cheaply by getting ride of the counter-rotating device.

What Saddam chose to go with was native manufacture of his tank rounds, he didn't have the technology to make DU rounds, and he lacked enough tungsten to make penetrators (since tungsten is also used in tools, he was faced with the same choice as the Nazis....being able to make tools, or make ammunition). He was forced to use stainless steel to make his armor penetrators and since his quality control was for shit, he wasn't able to make good quality stainless steel....this is why you hear so many stories of Iraqi AT rounds shattering on impact or just penetrating armor. The Iraqi Army depended on HEAT rounds to a great extant, but thus doomed them to except an engagement range well short of what the Allies could do.

During Desert Storm, M-1s and Challengers were able to engage with APFSDSDU to 4,500+ meters, the longest range shot was by an M-1 of the 1st Armored Division that hit a T-55 at 5,250 meters. When you consider that the Iraqis did not engage anything over 1,200 meters, you begin to understand just how demoralizing it was to go up against M-1s. The lethality of the APFSDSDU round was shown when a 2nd ACR M-1 nailed a T-72 at 2,100 meters, shooting through a protective berm 15 meters thick and still penetrating the turret ring.

There is also a confirmed story of an M-1 that was stuck in a bog and left behind for maintenance to recover. While waiting, the M-1 was attacked by three T-62 tanks. In the engagement that followed, the M-1 killed all three T-62s, for the expediture of four rounds of main gun ammo, and was hit by five 115mm APDSFS rounds. There was no penetration of the M-1's armor, one sponson box on the turret was damaged and the M-1 was fully operational and rejoined its platoon later that day.

There is also a lot of BS about how the Iraqi tanks where not of the same quaility as those used by the Russians. This has already been noted by a couple of other users and I repeat, this is nothing more than utter hogwash! The Iraqi's did not then, and do not now have the heavy industry to make their own tanks. They purchased directly from the builder, in other words, these tanks were taken directly from the Red Army's own production lines, this was Russian front line equipment. Where the Iraqi's dropped the ball was in the purchase of those little extras, like tank ammunition. In addition, the Soviets did not sell their latest ballistic computers and laser rangefinders, thus dooming the Iraqi Army to a fight that they couldn't win.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
There is also a lot of BS about how the Iraqi tanks where not of the same quaility as those used by the Russians. This has already been noted by a couple of other users and I repeat, this is nothing more than utter hogwash! The Iraqi's did not then, and do not now have the heavy industry to make their own tanks. They purchased directly from the builder, in other words, these tanks were taken directly from the Red Army's own production lines, this was Russian front line equipment. Where the Iraqi's dropped the ball was in the purchase of those little extras, like tank ammunition. In addition, the Soviets did not sell their latest ballistic computers and laser rangefinders, thus dooming the Iraqi Army to a fight that they couldn't win.
You are flat out wrong. No one here has suggested that the Iraqis made their own T-72s.

We have noted that the T-72s sold to Iraq were export versions. This means that they did not have all the bells and whistles that came standard on tanks retained for Soviet/Russian use- things like powered turret traverse, night sights, etc.

If you can provide reliable documentation that refutes this, please feel free to do so. Posting that something is "utter hogwash" does not make the poster an authority on the topic.
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