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Old 12-19-2016, 10:30 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Default MY Project

So as I mentioned in the last thread, I am trying to build the Project, in anticipation of a campaign I am trying to get together in 2017. I dislike the canon Project because it appears to be the result of a bunch of different people working towards a bunch of different ideas, all with the idea of maximizing roleplaying fun - I am not at ALL opposed to the latter, but as the GM I consider that something I have to work using the structure of the Project and not the other way around.

As it currently stands (and this is still rough), the Project is broken into 7 Regions, each divided into 6 Areas, each with 5 Groups. There is one additional Area (Alaska) and one additional Group (Hawaii) directly under the National command. Without going into the details of facilities and administrative subcommands, here is the basic structure:

National Command (1):
  • Total Personnel: 44,396

    Administrative Subcommands: MARS, Operations*, Recon, Recovery**, Science

    Facilities: Prime Base (1), Reserve Base (1), Hospitals (3, Science), Research Labs*** (7, Science), Air Base (3, Ops), Archives (3, Recovery), Comms Base (3, Ops), Factory (3, Ops), Logistics Base (3, Ops)

    Geographic Subcommands: Region (7), Area (1), Group (1)

    Direct-Report Teams: Phoenix (1)

Regional Commands (7):
  • Total Personnel: 5,878

    Administrative Subcommands: MARS, Operations*, Recon, Recovery**, Science

    Facilities: Command Base (1), Hospital (1, Science), Air Base (1, Ops), Comms Base (1, Ops), Factory (1, Ops), Logistics Base (1, Ops), Sea Base (1, Ops)

    Geographic Subcommands: Area (6)

    Direct-Report Teams: None

Area Commands (43):
  • Total Personnel: 876

    Administrative Subcommands: None, Area Commands are too small to warrant it.

    Facilities: Command Base (1), Comms Base (1, Ops), Logistics Base (1, Ops), Machine Shop (1, Ops), Maintenance Facility (1, Ops)

    Geographic Subcommands: Group (5)

    Direct-Report Teams:
    • Ops/Communications (1)
      Ops/Frozen Watch (1)
      Ops/Logistics (1)
      Recovery/Agriculture (1)
      Recovery/Civil Affairs (1)
      Recovery/Civil Engineering (1)
      Recovery/Combat Engineering (1)
      Recovery/Construction (1)
      Recovery/Decontamination (1)
      Recovery/Engineering (1)
      Recovery/Power Systems (1)
      Recovery/Water Systems (1)
      MARS (2)
      MARS/EOD (1)
      Recon (2)
      Recon/Intel (1)
      Science (1)
      Science/Medical (1)

Group Commands (216):
  • Total Personnel: 131

    Administrative Subcommands: None, Group Commands are too small to warrant it.

    Facilities: None, Groups are supposed to be mobile.

    Geographic Subcommands: None, just Teams.

    Direct-Report Teams:
    • Ops/Communications (1)
      Ops/Logistics (1)
      Recovery/Agriculture (1)
      Recovery/Civil Engineering (1)
      Recovery/Construction (1)
      Recovery/Engineering (1)
      Recovery/Power Systems (1)
      Recovery/Water Systems (1)
      MARS (2)
      Recon (4)
      Science/Medical (1)

Any thoughts?


*: Manages internal Project issues
**: Formerly "Specialty"
***: The Research Labs are the same ones with the same people where all the proprietary Morrow tech was developed - the equipment was stowed, the staff frozen.

Last edited by cosmicfish; 12-19-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:29 AM
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I think it looks really good and similar to what I had thought about. (9 regions and ~52k

The generic start for Regions/Areas/Groups seems very promising, but different geographical areas might need different specialization. Like the sea ops being focused on Ocean, Great lakes, or major rivers.

I don't know what you have at the Region air base level but I had plans for deployable helicopters at the Region level. Maybe 5 flights of 2 (plus ground crews) which could be temporarily run out of Area logistical or maintenance facilities. I had 2x M/AH-6 6 x UH-1 and 2 x CH-34 per region IIRC. Perhaps these could be considered direct report teams at the region level.

I would also add some redundancy at the national and region level as losses there would have a much larger effect on operations than areas or groups (which are small enough to be merged). No need for full redundancy (except maybe on logistics) but Command and Comms should be able to take up a portion of the other's work if one is lost (assuming a national asset cannot assist). Overlap between capabilities of the remaining regional facilities would also be logical if there is no duplication.

I have some interesting tools for calculating distance from canon nuclear strikes I could dig up if you decide you want to evaluate potential locations. For example when I was placing my regions and area facilities I used it to make sure I was 100 and 75 miles away from a strike respectivly.

Another note from my research good luck placing teams in New Jersey if you want it 25 miles away from a strike as I think there is only one small area that fits that bill.

If you get to the point of placing sites, let me know and I'll see what I can get up and running.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:50 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Originally Posted by kato13 View Post
The generic start for Regions/Areas/Groups seems very promising, but different geographical areas might need different specialization. Like the sea ops being focused on Ocean, Great lakes, or major rivers.
Each of my 7 regions has water access to either an ocean, the Gulf of Mexico, or the Great Lakes, which is why I gave each one a sea base. My current plan is that the numbers and types of teams in each command would not vary since they address consistent operational or recovery needs, but the equipment assigned would reflect the geography. A Group in Utah might have zero watercraft while a group covering Louisiana might have some kind of boat assigned to every team.

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I don't know what you have at the Region air base level but I had plans for deployable helicopters at the Region level. Maybe 5 flights of 2 (plus ground crews) which could be temporarily run out of Area logistical or maintenance facilities. I had 2x M/AH-6 6 x UH-1 and 2 x CH-34 per region IIRC. Perhaps these could be considered direct report teams at the region level.
My original plan was to have heavy / long-range aircraft (fixed and rotary) at the national air bases, with medium-duty aircraft (fixed and rotary) at the regional level. The actual aircraft assignments died with my old hard drive and I have not yet made new ones. Considering that I want the war to be always 3-5 years past the start of the game, I was thinking of UH-60's, AH-64's, and CH-47's at all the bases with the addition of a few CH-53's and S-64's at the national bases. Other than C-130's, I haven't even looked at fixed wing yet.

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I would also add some redundancy at the national and region level as losses there would have a much larger effect on operations than areas or groups (which are small enough to be merged). No need for full redundancy (except maybe on logistics) but Command and Comms should be able to take up a portion of the other's work if one is lost (assuming a national asset cannot assist). Overlap between capabilities of the remaining regional facilities would also be logical if there is no duplication.
Agreed, that was why I had separate comms facilities in the first place. I should also note that all my facilities are manned, although many have some automated functionality as well.

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Originally Posted by kato13 View Post
I have some interesting tools for calculating distance from canon nuclear strikes I could dig up if you decide you want to evaluate potential locations. For example when I was placing my regions and area facilities I used it to make sure I was 100 and 75 miles away from a strike respectivly.
I would indeed be interested!

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Originally Posted by kato13 View Post
Another note from my research good luck placing teams in New Jersey if you want it 25 miles away from a strike as I think there is only one small area that fits that bill.
Part of my motivation for keeping Groups 100% mobile was so that they could be kept out of the high-risk locations but still move to support them post-war. But I am also basing my allocations on a simple "probability of survival" algorithm, so high-density areas are allocated fewer resources per-capita (pre-war). The remains of New Jersey may not require too many teams anyway!
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:07 PM
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Here is my basic mapping tool i built years ago. It was meant to be a AutoNAV analog but was never completed.

http://googlemaps.juhlin.com/map_ver_0_5_002.html

Unfortunately google keeps changing specs so things break. Some day I may fix the strike visualizations (you used to be able to see the damage rings) and the units tab. Plus I would like to add markers for resources and map elements.

To get to the Morrow project strikes click on the strikes tab and then click "Manage" button . Change from Tw2k Canon Strikes (default) to Expanded Morrow Strikes. Then as you drag around the map the window will get updated with the closest strikes. (Expand shows the nearest 25)

You can still use the "MAP" and "RESOURCES: tabs to find all sorts of things from airstrips, hospitals and schools (MAP) to mines, chemical plants, and renewable energy sources (RESOURCES). Once you click on the Tab you can click "Manage" to select what elements you want to find.

I think it defaults to renewable energy sources and population centers. (and I was just starting transmitters when I stopped working so that is very partial)

The markers can also be cool for measuring stuff. As you can plop one down and then see how far it is from any particular point. Click Mark and it should put a pushpin in the map. Using the marker button you can see how far you are from the point once you move around.

All in all it is about 50% functional but I still use it a lot even if it is just using the markers to measure an airstrip of something.

Oh you can change from km/meters to miles/feet and a few other things in the options section.


Hope it is useful.




edit (search was broken but i think it is fixed now)

edit 2. If the link does not work, give it a few hours as I just created the sub-domain and it can take a bit to propagate to the world.

Last edited by kato13; 12-19-2016 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Part of my motivation for keeping Groups 100% mobile was so that they could be kept out of the high-risk locations but still move to support them post-war. But I am also basing my allocations on a simple "probability of survival" algorithm, so high-density areas are allocated fewer resources per-capita (pre-war). The remains of New Jersey may not require too many teams anyway!
I actually made all my bottom two levels totally mobile (designed to be broken down). What would be teams and areas by your nomenclature.

Due to the volume of stored material in Area facilities, they were not expected to be able to move with organic transport, but I tried to keep equipment stocks at the level of weight and volume being 10X the organic transport. My expectation would be that sub units would assist in both convoy escort and in transport. I also prioritized equipment on what would move out first in an emergency.

Again area facilities would not be required to move (as teams are), but if necessity or simple convenience made it desirable, it was possible. If they did not move and were able to use their original facilities, the project would simply have a surplus of items that would probably be useful anyway (generator, tents, fortification elements, etc)

Last edited by kato13; 12-19-2016 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:19 PM
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National Command (1):

Total Personnel: 44,396

Regional Commands (7):

Total Personnel: 5,878 = 41,176

Area Commands (43):

Total Personnel: 876 = 37,668

Group Commands (216):

Total Personnel: 131 =28,296

Your Morrow Project has 151,536 personnel?

How do you tracelessly disappear 150k persons? While trying do find family less drifter with bachlelors degrees and a fondness for camping?

Also what is there to do for 44k personnel to do when managing 28k persons?
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
Your Morrow Project has 151,536 personnel?

How do you tracelessly disappear 150k persons? While trying do find family less drifter with bachlelors degrees and a fondness for camping?

Also what is there to do for 44k personnel to do when managing 28k persons?
I think you subtract the lower levels out of the numbers provided.
National Command (1):
44396 - (7 * 5878) = 3250
Personnel in National Command 3250
Total Personnel: 3250

Regional Commands (7):
5878 - (876 *6) = 622
Personnel per Region 622
Total Personnel: 4552

Area Commands (43):

876 - (5 x 131) = 221
Personnel per Area 221
Total Personnel: 9505

Group Commands (216):

Total Personnel: 131 =28,296

The bolded numbers total 45603 so my math might be off somewhere (maybe i double counted AK and HI somehow)

Now that I look at the numbers the Areas having such low personnel counts with bases and 20 direct report teams does seem to be an issue, but I think the higher levels are ok (assuming a fair bit of automation)

Last edited by kato13; 12-20-2016 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:11 AM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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I think Sgt is closer about the numbers. Looking at the breakdown of National level bases and teams that need to be staffed, there are a total of 28. Three of them are hospitals, which if we say they are the equivalent of a Combat Support Hospital with 250 beds, you will have around 600 people staffing each one. If it is staffed more like a regular hospital, 250 beds will have closer to 1200 people staffing it. Seven are research labs, which if I use the small biotech research lab I worked at as a model, has about 5 researchers, 15 assistants and, 15 glass/machinists/maintenance workers.

With just this level of staffing of these two types, we have between 2000 and 3800 people. How many are stationed at Prime Base, 100? How many workers per factory, 25?

The air bases easily each have about 3 each of 2 different rotary wing craft and some number of fixed wing craft. For now let's say 2 fixed wing. There will be some crossover, but some specialist for each aircraft. There should be about 20 pilots (2 per craft plus 4 for rotation), 15 mechanics and machinist, plus at least 5 for base logistics like flight scheduling and air traffic control. That put another 40 per base, 120 total, under the national bases.

These numbers probably more accurately describe staffing at the Regional level bases. Are the National level hospitals and bases larger and have even more staff than this? Any way you slice this, you are disappearing a modest sized city.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:16 AM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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How do you tracelessly disappear 150k persons?
Maybe Bruce does all the heavy lifting taking people off crashing airplanes like in the 1989 movie Millenium. No one goes looking for dead people.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:21 AM
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I always expected the project to be equipment rich and personnel poor, expecting the survivors to fill out the ranks when ever possible.

Is the red cross designed to use local talent? I honestly don't know, but I expect that they assume at least some of the grunt work will be done by locals.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:31 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Your Morrow Project has 151,536 personnel?
No, kato13 had the right idea. Let's take it from the ground up:

Team (4,479): Between 6 and 12 personnel each, with the vast majority at 8 or 9.

Group (216): 15 Teams totaling 122 personnel, with another 9 in a "command team" for 131 total.

Area (43): 5 Groups totaling 131x5=655 personnel, another 161 personnel in the 20 teams attached directly to the Area Command, 40 personnel running the 5 small bases, and 20 more in the command team for 876 total.

Region (7): 6 Areas totaling 876x6=5,256 personnel, another 433 personnel in the administrative subcommands, 147 personnel running the 7 medium bases, and 42 more in the command team for 5,878 total.

National (1): 7 Regions totaling 5,878x7=41,146 personnel, 1 Area with 876 personnel, 1 Group with 131 personnel, another 883 personnel in the administrative subcommands, 42* in Phoenix Team, 1,098 personnel running the 27 large bases, and 220 more in the command team for 44,396 total.

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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
How do you tracelessly disappear 150k persons?
How do you tracelessly disappear 50k? Or 10k? Millions of people die each year and thousands more go missing never to be found. I would suspect that TMP would have a not-small office devoted to making sure that all recruits "died" in the manner that required the least amount of effort to conceal. Even if the Project was 150k strong, spread over 30 years that only adds up to 5k per year on average. Boating accidents in deep water, plane crashes, deaths overseas, situations where the body was "cremated" before any return to family, situations where someone else's corpse is substituted for the Project member... ultimately there should be lots of ways to do it and, like so many questionable issues, this must have happened for the Project to exist. So even 150k doesn't worry me, I just don't want a Project that large.

*: Can't remember if this is the canonical number or not, I just used it for convenience.

Last edited by cosmicfish; 12-20-2016 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
I think Sgt is closer about the numbers. Looking at the breakdown of National level bases and teams that need to be staffed, there are a total of 28. Three of them are hospitals, which if we say they are the equivalent of a Combat Support Hospital with 250 beds, you will have around 600 people staffing each one. If it is staffed more like a regular hospital, 250 beds will have closer to 1200 people staffing it. Seven are research labs, which if I use the small biotech research lab I worked at as a model, has about 5 researchers, 15 assistants and, 15 glass/machinists/maintenance workers.

With just this level of staffing of these two types, we have between 2000 and 3800 people. How many are stationed at Prime Base, 100? How many workers per factory, 25?

The air bases easily each have about 3 each of 2 different rotary wing craft and some number of fixed wing craft. For now let's say 2 fixed wing. There will be some crossover, but some specialist for each aircraft. There should be about 20 pilots (2 per craft plus 4 for rotation), 15 mechanics and machinist, plus at least 5 for base logistics like flight scheduling and air traffic control. That put another 40 per base, 120 total, under the national bases.

These numbers probably more accurately describe staffing at the Regional level bases. Are the National level hospitals and bases larger and have even more staff than this? Any way you slice this, you are disappearing a modest sized city.
Kato13 again beat me to it, but nothing in TMP ever has what we would consider "normal" staffing.

The hospitals I am envisioning are small - day-to-day medical needs are on the medical teams in the field (and in this version of the Project, about 2/3 of Science command is medical staff!), the "hospitals" at the regional and group levels are designed for those few cases that require either exceptional facilities and/or exceptional knowledge AND which can justify sending a vehicle hundreds or thousands of miles in a world where there may only be a few thousand operational vehicles for a population in the tens of millions. So think of the hospitals as having around 40 staff, total, with a lot of automeds.

The research labs are relatively well staffed (around 40) simply because they were working before the war and froze everyone, but I only envision a handful of "support staff" in each - your assistant for this project may well be your boss for another project, and washing beakers and sweeping floors happens by rota, there is no room for PhD's too proud to wipe down a counter.

The factories and logistics bases are also around 40 personnel because they rely heavily on automation and are limited in the scope of what they can do. Remember that the Starnaman supply base canonically was completely unmanned and self-sufficient, I am envisioning bases that use a small staff to direct but have similar levels of automation.

The air bases have small staffs (around 40 national and 20 regional) in part because fusion-powered aircraft should require less maintenance (no ICE's, just electric motors!) and in part because all the flight crews are included in the regional and national MARS and Recovery commands. Same for the sea bases.

The comms bases and archives are both small, about 20 and 9 personnel each respectively. The comms bases are more focused on mostly switchboards and relays, and the archives are not even intended to operate until there is a healthy civilian population ready to unbox artwork and read books.

Prime base and the reserve have about 200 people split between them just to run the base - maintenance, cafeteria, plumbing, etc. The national command team is likewise split between the two facilities and uses them to run the project. When you toss in the major subcommands you have almost 1,300 people split between the two facilities.
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:57 AM
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Then I completely do not understand this method of accounting for personnel.
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Old 12-20-2016, 01:15 PM
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Then I completely do not understand this method of accounting for personnel.
Like with any math equation, the answer is dependent on the question. If I ask "how many men are in a battalion", and you ask "how many are men in the battalion headquarters company" our answers are not going to look the same! I wanted to know how many people were in the Project, and I wanted it as a single, automatic output of my structure. That's what this is - National Command: 44,396. There are 44,396 people in the Project.

If it helps, my use of "Command" does not mean "headquarters unit" but rather "everyone and everything under the command of person X". A Regional Command is everything under the command of the Regional Commander, including all subsidiary subcommands, Areas, Groups, Teams, etc.
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Old 06-25-2017, 12:44 AM
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Sorry, I know this is an old thread but...

Do you guys have these bases detailed out? Like what do you have at a regional base or a Comms base? How many people of each team at each location? What assets are at each?

I am working on a modified T2K/MP theory and am just starting to work out the details.
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Old 06-25-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
Maybe Bruce does all the heavy lifting taking people off crashing airplanes like in the 1989 movie Millenium. No one goes looking for dead people.
I think thousands drop off the Earth IRL each year, the Project has had over 40 years to do so now. The disappearances might be what tips the U. S. off about the Project.
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Old 06-25-2017, 03:56 PM
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Like with any math equation, the answer is dependent on the question. If I ask "how many men are in a battalion", and you ask "how many are men in the battalion headquarters company" our answers are not going to look the same! I wanted to know how many people were in the Project, and I wanted it as a single, automatic output of my structure. That's what this is - National Command: 44,396. There are 44,396 people in the Project.

If it helps, my use of "Command" does not mean "headquarters unit" but rather "everyone and everything under the command of person X". A Regional Command is everything under the command of the Regional Commander, including all subsidiary subcommands, Areas, Groups, Teams, etc.
Regaurdless of differences, it's interesting to see others' work.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:08 AM
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Do you guys have these bases detailed out? Like what do you have at a regional base or a Comms base? How many people of each team at each location? What assets are at each?
I have some detail on manpower, as that was the thrust of my first cut. I can, for example, tell you how many of each team member are in each team or facility or command, but they are initial numbers and I am not certain that I am happy with them.

My next step was going to be vehicles but my initial looks gave me some weird numbers - the Project's nature means it needs a LOT of vehicles, and (IMO) those vehicles need to be tough, but that can easily lead to the point where the Project has more APC's than most nations. I should get back to this but the game I was planning has been shelved for the moment.
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