Guns a GoGo and the Twilight War

[Brian S]

Would armed Chinooks reappear in the Twilight War? Just Curious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cB-6BSHJws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WttpWwcSjy4
http://gunsagogo.org/
http://www.redstone.army.mil/history...unsagogo2.html

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Brian S

Would armed Chinooks reappear in the Twilight War? Just Curious

Until they ran out of aviation fuel.

[chico20854]

or ran into some modern air defense artillery/SAMs.

[pmulcahy11b]

Or if they needed some ready-made ground shelters -- just line the insides and outsides with sandbags, wood, and scrap metal...

[Brian S]

Originally Posted by chico20854

or ran into some modern air defense artillery/SAMs.

Isn't that true about any helicopter? So your saying MH-47s are a bad idea too?

[pmulcahy11b]

The first 6-8 months of the Twilight War, there would be (pardon the term) an orgasm of air power. Then it will begin to taper off as aircraft are destroyed, older aircraft are pressed back into service and eventually also destroyed, and eventually the virtual impossibility of getting oil anywhere without the tankers being sunk will paralyze air forces. The November Nuclear Strikes will just be the coup de grace for air power in T2K. There will be isolated places where some aircraft are functioning, but it's more likely that it will be a Cessna than a Raptor, more likely a Robinson than a Chinook.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brian S

Isn't that true about any helicopter? So your saying MH-47s are a bad idea too?

I think Chinooks would be particularly vulnerable. They are rather big targets and not quite as fast and/or manouverable as an Apache or a Hokum. Using a Chinook as a gunship against modestly-armed insurgents might work OK, but they would be easy pickings on a battlefield with modern ADW.

[Brian S]

Thats I was thinking was low intensity conflict or wolf in sheeps clothing escort like they did in Nam. Only a moron would use one against 1st and 2nd line gunships. Did anybody actually read what I put up there? Just curious.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think Chinooks would be particularly vulnerable. They are rather big targets and not quite as fast and/or manouverable as an Apache or a Hokum. Using a Chinook as a gunship against modestly-armed insurgents might work OK, but they would be easy pickings on a battlefield with modern ADW.

I don't think modern ADWs would be any more common than operational aircraft in 2000. Most would be guns, which have a secondary role against ground targets, but are inferior to SAMs against flying things.

(I'll note that I see the supply situation as being worse than canon generally suggests)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Brian S

Isn't that true about any helicopter? So your saying MH-47s are a bad idea too?

Yes, unfortunately, it's true of any helicopter or low-flying aircraft. That's why you use them carefully -- special ops helicopters fly mostly at night, and if you have it, you fly helicopters and aircraft with plenty of SEAD and support on the ground to kill those shoulder-launched missiles and light AAA.

[Brian S]

Originally Posted by copeab

Until they ran out of aviation fuel.

I was thinking of something along these lines appearing in the Middle East, Kenya or Alaska during the war in a trickle. I'm not so worried about game time (>2000) so to speak.

[kato13]

Given what I have seen recently (Apache shoot down rates in Iraq) I feel that all helicopters would have had atrocious casualty rates during all phases of the war. I honestly think that late in the war use for transport of key supplies would overshadow use for combat. Transport helicopters would be irreplaceable assets and as a commander I would not risk them in combat unless I felt they were relatively safe from ADA and would provide a significant combat advantage.

[Targan]

I agree with Kato. I think that from 1998 to 2000 in T2K remaining operations Chinooks (while certainly festooned with door guns) would be kept well away from combat situations by commanders.

[jester]

I'd say they would be used for more unique operations.

Remember, they are an asset, but also the materials they would need would also be a scarce asset, hydraulic fluid, fuel and consumable as well as common maintenance items would be well husbanded resources.

The insertion of a covert team into enemy controled territory would be a one. Or using the helos again to land a platoon or company of troops to secure an oil facility would be a good risk.

And even using such a craft as a SAR could be a good use. More like a rescue vessel from a RP.

Another, the transport of personel or material across say, the arctic would be a good use.

The key to it however is the materials needed to keep it running.

[Legbreaker]

The prime year 2000 helicopter example has to be Krakows.

It's in virtually mint condition, more weapons and ammo than it can carry, but never flies because it's just too valuable to risk ANYTHING happening to it.

The same could be said for virtually all aircraft, rotary or fixed wing.

Come to think about it, there's probably some ground and sea assets that fall into the same category...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The prime year 2000 helicopter example has to be Krakows.

It's in virtually mint condition, more weapons and ammo than it can carry, but never flies because it's just too valuable to risk ANYTHING happening to it.

That sort of makes it like a nuclear weapon today -- simultaneously extremely valuable and profoundly worthless.

[headquarters]

any thing and everything would be pressed into action -depending on the situation in the AO.

Sure - a Chinook wouldnt be sacrificed needlessly against the adversaries purpose built attack planes etc .

But I adhere to the theory that if organization and command chain is kept ,adapting and improvising will recieve merit .Cessnas will be used for scouting and spotting ,and if nothing else is available - Cessnas will be used to try and shoot down the Cessnas etc .

There have been many an improvised airforce in history :
Cuban revolutionaries under Castro and Cienfuegos
Sri Lankan Rebels in Tamil areas
Israeli planes in 1947-1948
Bosniak planes in Bosnia in the early 1990s

and more that I cant recall of the top of my head .

The more sophisticated the system ,the poorer operational stability in terms of T2K.I.e gazillion dollar modern stuff quickly goes down - older tech with cruder parts survive longer .

In any case - lack of good aviation fuel along with any number of other materials and parts will end modern air power and usher in a new era of prop engined death crates with machineguns and smal GP bombs as main armament..

all imho -of course