Franken-AFVs

[cawest]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

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Okay here you go its M113/TS90

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by cawest

Okay here you go its M113/TS90

Thanks for posting that image.
I have to say, it kinda looks "wrong", as in, the turret look too big for the hull - like seeing a fat head on a tiny body kinda wrong (and not photoshop kinda wrong)

[Vespers War]

The M113/LS90 looks less top-heavy, since it uses a smaller LP90 turret from the Cadillac Gage V-300/LAV-300 with a Cockerill Mk. III gun. It's quite a bit smaller than the GIAT TS90 turret with CS90 gun. Ammunition stowage was 42 rounds, and the fully equipped and crewed turret weighed about 4900 pounds.

Australia had a number of turreted M113s that loosely fit into the Frankenvehicle concept - they were standard production, but cannibalized parts from vehicles being retired. I expect the Australian board members will know more than I do, but my understanding is it started with an interim fire support vehicle that had the Saladin armored car's turret added, giving the M113 a 76mm and .30 coax. It was replaced by the medium fire support vehicle with the FV101 Scorpion's turret, also 76mm and .30. There was also a light fire support vehicle with the T50 turret from the Cadillac Gage V100/V150, which had a .50 and a .30. Troops were generally equipped with 3 light and 2 medium support vehicles.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

The M113/LS90 looks less top-heavy, since it uses a smaller LP90 turret from the Cadillac Gage V-300/LAV-300 with a Cockerill Mk. III gun. It's quite a bit smaller than the GIAT TS90 turret with CS90 gun. Ammunition stowage was 42 rounds, and the fully equipped and crewed turret weighed about 4900 pounds.

Australia had a number of turreted M113s that loosely fit into the Frankenvehicle concept - they were standard production, but cannibalized parts from vehicles being retired. I expect the Australian board members will know more than I do, but my understanding is it started with an interim fire support vehicle that had the Saladin armored car's turret added, giving the M113 a 76mm and .30 coax. It was replaced by the medium fire support vehicle with the FV101 Scorpion's turret, also 76mm and .30. There was also a light fire support vehicle with the T50 turret from the Cadillac Gage V100/V150, which had a .50 and a .30. Troops were generally equipped with 3 light and 2 medium support vehicles.

In regard to how Australia equipped units with the M113, it depends on the time period.
Initially, Cavalry units were equipped with the the Saladin turret M113 which was know as the Fire Support Vehicle (M113 FSV), other vehicles retained the standard commander's hatch and pintle mounted MG until it was decided to fit the T50 turret to protect the commander (from memory, as a response to casualties in Vietnam). They still retained their APC designation as the Cavalry units were essentially still "battlefield taxi" units despite having the fire support of the Saladin turret M113.

When some units were re-roled as Armoured Reconnaissance units, they were taken away from the "taxi" role and were equipped with the Scorpion turret M113 but as befits the role, they were known as Medium Reconnaissance Vehicles (M113 MRV) while the standard APC M113 was known, only within the Armoured Recce units, as the Light Reconnaissance Vehicle (M113 LRV).
Even though, by this time, all troop carrying M113s had been fitted with the T50 turret, those vehicles in cavalry units were know as APCs while M113s with the exact same configuration (i.e. T50 turret) in the Armoured Recce units were know as LRVs.

All the 76mm armed M113s in Australian service had been retired before the 2000s and the common talk at the time was that the smoke from the 76mm ammunition was carcinogenic so it was done for health reasons. Neither the Saladin or Scorpion turrets had any sort of bore or barrel evacuator so a lot of that smoke ended up in the turret.

[dragoon500ly]

You really don't need the bore evacuator on a smaller caliber main gun the turret blower is all you really need.

Almost all NATO standard cannon ammunition is ammonia -based, after firing several rounds, blowers get switched on and hatches get cracked! Another problem on AFVs without escape hatches, is the practice of using a spent case as a piss tube, not so nice on a hot day....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As mentioned, it was "common talk" i.e. soldier's gossip.
The actual reason for withdrawal of the M113 MRV may have been as prosaic as plans for the future structure of the army no longer saw a role for it.
Or because the 76mm was seen as no longer effective against current and/or potential future threats.
However, what was commonly mentioned at the time was that it was done for health reasons because the 76mm ammo was claimed to produce carcinogenic smoke.
How accurate that belief was, I don't particularly know.

EDIT:
After some checking on the web, it seems the claim most likely originated in the UK in 1991. The belief is that the Scorpion was classified as a "tank" under the Conventional Forces Europe treaty and was earmarked for removal from British forces, apparently in order to prevent the number of MBTs on strength from having to be reduced further. However soldier's gossip made that into "Scorpion was removed because it caused cancer etc. etc."
Other claims about the smoke from the 76mm ammo are that it was toxic, that it caused Alzheimer's disease and even Parkinson's disease.
Why Australia chose to remove the MRV from service could have been a knee-jerk reaction to the those rumours or it could indeed be something as mundane as the 76mm (which if I recall, only carried HESH and HE as offensive rounds in Australian service) was considered no longer up to the task.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Even though, by this time, all troop carrying M113s had been fitted with the T50 turret, those vehicles in cavalry units were know as APCs while M113s with the exact same configuration (i.e. T50 turret) in the Armoured Recce units were know as LRVs.

I may be misremembering something I read, but weren't the cavalry T50s equipped with dual .30 MGs, while the LRV T50s had a .50 and a .30?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I may be misremembering something I read, but weren't the cavalry T50s equipped with dual .30 MGs, while the LRV T50s had a .50 and a .30?

Really it appeared a bit random in my experience as an infantryman. Most the buckets I rode in had the .50/.30 but a handful (usually older machines) had the twin .30's. Mostly it seemed to come down to what guns were available and functional in the unit's armoury at the time.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

To further add to what Legbreaker said, the choice of whether to fit two .30 cals or a 30/50 combo or even a single .50 cal usually came down to the unit itself and what they felt was the best mix.
The first Armoured Recce unit I joined typically had all the T50 turrets armed with the 30/50 mix and extra .30 cals were mounted on the designated APC in the Troops (on pintles at the rear so that the Assault Troops being carried could use them from the read hatch).

Typical structure of the Recce Troop in the 1980s onward was five vehicles comprised of 2x MRV, 2x LRV, 1x APC. A Section of Assault Troops was carried to allow recce tasks in areas the vehicles couldn't access but they were also expected to carry out minor demolitions and engineering work in support of the vehicles.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cawest

Okay here you go its M113/TS90

That's more of a roll hazard than a 577...

[Brit]

Originally Posted by cawest

Okay here you go its M113/TS90

That really does look too much turret on too little a vehicle... but...

Go with me on this but the WWII Matilda tank turret to me works on the M113. I know I stuck one on one...

The WWII, etc, Stuart turret 'works' too...